14:39, Wed 22 May
QBBC2
Mathematics is the tool humans have developed to make sense of the world. That doesn't mean the world exists because of maths.

No. The language and syntax of mathematics is the tool humans have used to make sense of what underpins the physics of the universe. The world *does* exist because of maths. If you change the value of some of the universal constants, make gravity a little higher or lower, or alter the speed of light - the universe as we know it would not exist. Humans exist because the universe exists. Of course, there may have been infinite universes that have or will exist without humans, but this is the only one that we are aware of.

QBBC2
Swapping the word 'myth' for the word 'theory' doesn't make you correct, it changes the point. A myth and a theory are not the same thing. That said, arguing semantics is a diversionary tactic anyway. Stick to the questions.

For science to be able to ask a question, the question has to be defined in a rational way. You can't create a scientific experiment to 'disprove' the Loch Ness Monster, but you could devise an experiment to search for a large aquatic creature residing in a body of water. You could design a test parameter, apply it to a real world example, then repeat the process in order to prove (and I use the word prove here) that your theory is correct (by finding a large aquatic animal in looch ness) but NOT to disprove that one existed.


Semantics is important because as individuals, in order to work together for a common good we need to define and understand our terms of reference.



QBBC2
Yes, there is 'faith' in science. There is no such thing as scientific proof, therefore a belief in science to be correct requires faith. Both science and religion require epistemological shortcuts. For example, you can believe in quantum physics without being able to understand it or even describe it so you must take it on faith. Faith is a trust, belief or conviction that something is true.

No, the driving force of science is the exact opposite of faith. It is to question everything.

No one 'believes' in quantum physics, anymore than someone believes in gravity. They are just, to use your wonderful example above, "tool humans have developed to make sense of the world".

Do you have faith when you go on an aeroplane? Do you have faith when you eat food to produce heat to power your organs to extract oxygen from the air to keep your brain alive?

(all these terms are concepts humans have developed to make sense of the world).
H Bomb on DES "I'm actually ashamed to support the same club as you"
15:57, Wed 22 May
Both faith and belief are investments of the human ego. Replace faith and belief with the phrase "I want" whereas actually it's "I think", which is wholly different. Science is about a current model that seems to work. Thirty years ago I would have told you that, planets a pretty rare in our galaxy because the majority of stars are binary or greater systems and this precludes the formation of accretion discs from which planets are born. That's what our then understanding of the cosmos told us was the probable model for finding exoplanets.

The reality was totally different and planets exist by the billion and that "water" probably exists on many of them in various forms. Belief and faith are oftne the enemy of new understanding because they are born from the ego and therefore people are often loathe to let those beliefs go. That is equally true theologically and scientifically. Einstein pretty much gave up on physics post Bohr proving that, not only did his argument of "God not playing with dice" was specious in actual fact, it was almost certainly the dice rolling god. Einstein's "Faith and belief" in the "clockwork universe theory" of the enlightenment meant he couldn't countenance the concept of the utter randomness that quantum theory shows is actually the model as we currently understand it.

A large part of the problem with researching UFOS call them what you will is that, you are dealing with a large number of people from all backgrounds who cannot countenance, often albeit subconsciously, the simple concept that, humans aren't the end all and be all of intelligence in the universe. They simply flee inside their belief and faith in that rather ridiculous idea.
She's playing with fire, he''s not ready for nibbly pig...
16:25, Wed 22 May
Since you're here and we're on the subject, what's your take on the MJ-12 documents? I know Stanton argued as to their authenticity but there do seem some pretty damning falsehoods for me.
AnE - conspiracy theorist, ardent viler-hater, nutjob cyclist, Cubie-bater, go-to iconoclast
16:53, Wed 22 May
Faked by someone within the CIA/Security Services, containing some facts and a lot of falsehoods. In short, the typical way they deal with UFOs, muddy the waters so you don't know what is real and what is fake.
She's playing with fire, he''s not ready for nibbly pig...
17:15, Wed 22 May
Sorry I'd switched off and got on with my life - only just seen this thread has now gone to 100+

It's OK QBBC2 if you don't believe that's your prerogative, and it's clear that it's not really a subject that interests you, so I wouldn't expect you to have done the level of research I have on these matters, so I can pardon your ignorance. Not really sure what God has to do with this - that's why your comment/question is (and remains) irrelevant from my point of view, that's why it didn't get a dignified response.

From what I've read I believe we are being visited by extra-terrestrials. To suggest there's as much evidence that God exists as aliens is again, another numptyville statement, if you look at the Whitley Streiber, Betty & Barney Hill, Lonnie Zamora, Roswell and Anchorage incidents, all with physical and radar evidence to back up statements from respectable / professional people who can't be described as "Internet Weirdos". That's before we get into the deathbed confessions of several senior US Military folk or what trained and experienced astronauts have said on the matter.

I think the problem is you and your fellow skeptics don't really understand the significance of the recent US navy Statement. Having spent the past 50 years or so denying they have any interest in UFOs (or UAPs to use the common nomenclature), they have now made a complete U-turn and admitted that they are tracking cases, they don't know what these UAPs are, or where they come from, and perhaps most significantly they have asked for further funding to support their investigation efforts.

Why would they do that for a load of old "Bollox"??? Why would they care?

So let me now ask you a genuine question. Given these facts, do you still think it's not an important matter or not worthy of proper scientific research? Do you still think people like me who disagree with your opinion on this can be simply labelled as "Internet Weirdos".

Personally I don't give a toss what your opinion of me is, but at least have the guts to come up with a viable alternative then try to drag this into "Do you believe in God" territory.
17:42, Wed 22 May
Sorry Monty, I'm done. 100+ posts from virtually nothing and rattled AnE's cage. You've conflated my posts with the posts of others and presented them as one to establish your point which is typical conspiracy theorist behaviour. I'm not a UFO skeptic, I didn't call UFOlogists internet weirdos and I couldn't give less of a toss if the US military want to look for aliens. I'd rather they do that than bomb people so I guess I'm all for it. Whatever happens, as I've already said, the believers will believe, the skeptics will scoff and life will go on.

Now try to calm down and enjoy your evening.
18:08, Wed 22 May
Fair point. KRO
18:56, Wed 22 May
Spot on...you didn't call UFOlogists internet weirdos, you called them ‘UFO nuts’ suggesting they weren’t sain of mind.

Now you will probably claim that your ‘nuts’ reference suggested that they were just really interested in UFO’s but that can’t be right because you stated that there was lots of evidence to support the existence of god (further belittling UFO enthusiasts).

Then you got all upity and aggressive when people questioned your opinion
19:20, Wed 22 May
He got aggressive?
Fat Buddha - 'Rab C Nesbitt. He's a contrary fecker, but invariably right. He has his finger on the motherfecking pulse.'
20:16, Wed 22 May
Got any links. I'd love to read more about this.

Good thread too.
20:41, Wed 22 May
Sorry Monty, I'm done. 100+ posts from virtually nothing and rattled AnE's cage. You've conflated my posts with the posts of others and presented them as one to establish your point which is typical conspiracy theorist behaviour. I'm not a UFO skeptic, I didn't call UFOlogists internet weirdos and I couldn't give less of a toss if the US military want to look for aliens. I'd rather they do that than bomb people so I guess I'm all for it. Whatever happens, as I've already said, the believers will believe, the skeptics will scoff and life will go on.

Now try to calm down and enjoy your evening.

Qbeeb wins by several TKO's. I've never seen so much squirming off the tin foilers than on this thread.

QBeeb...well done bab.
21:04, Wed 22 May
If you are interested in UFOs then "unacknowledged" on Netflix is worth a watch. A lot of it is pretty rubbish but the interviews with pilots etc are very interesting
AnE - conspiracy theorist, ardent viler-hater, nutjob cyclist, Cubie-bater, go-to iconoclast
21:34, Wed 22 May
I’m looking forward to Unidentified airing next week, in the meantime I’ll give that a watch 👍
22:21, Wed 22 May
👍 some of the quotes in unacknowledged are pretty good too. It goes a bit tin foil towards the end but it's definitely worth a watch
AnE - conspiracy theorist, ardent viler-hater, nutjob cyclist, Cubie-bater, go-to iconoclast
13:02, Thu 23 May
and the pentagon finally admit they still investigate UFOs 😎 👽

[nypost.com]
AnE - conspiracy theorist, ardent viler-hater, nutjob cyclist, Cubie-bater, go-to iconoclast