SHA Small Heath Alliance

To avoid discussion on other threads, this is what I think:

🔷 Criteria for a “Big Club”
1. Historical Domestic Success
2. European Achievement
3. Fanbase Size & Cultural Impact
4. Stature Over Time (not just recent form)
5. Global Recognition and Reach

⸻

🔝 Joint-Top Tier: Celtic, Liverpool, Manchester United

🔴 Liverpool
• Domestic League Titles: 19
• European Cups: 6 (most by a British club)
• Massive global fanbase
• Legendary status with players like Dalglish, Gerrard, and clubs’ ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone’ anthem
• Dominant in Europe in both the 1970s–80s and 2019–20s.

🔴 Manchester United
• Domestic League Titles: 20 (most in England)
• European Cups: 3
• Sir Alex Ferguson era transformed global perception
• Among the richest and most followed clubs globally

🍀 Celtic
• Domestic League Titles: 54 (second-most in British football after Rangers)
• European Cups: 1 (1967 – First British club to win it)
• Historic quadruple in 1967: won every competition entered
• Iconic global club, particularly among Irish diaspora and politically engaged football fans
• 60,000 average attendance and one of the highest season ticket bases in Europe
• Global brand identity: associated with anti-establishment, working-class pride
• Dominant in Scotland for decades with incredible domestic records

⏳ Why Celtic is joint-top: Unlike clubs like Chelsea or City, Celtic’s stature is not recent. They were always a big club, and their cultural identity transcends football. Being the first British club to win the European Cup (unlike Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, or even City until recently) and maintaining a huge following makes them historically and culturally a peer of Liverpool and United.

⸻

🔶 Next Tier: Arsenal

🔴 Arsenal
• Domestic League Titles: 13
• European Trophies: 1 (Cup Winners’ Cup, 1994)
• Consistent success, including The Invincibles season (2003–04)
• Massive London club with global following
• Longstanding top-tier presence
• However, no Champions League title, and fewer league titles than Celtic or Liverpool

⸻

🔸 Third Tier: Manchester City, Chelsea (slightly ahead), Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton

🔵 Manchester City
• Domestic League Titles: 10 (6 since 2012)
• European Cups: 1 (2023)
• Dominance under Pep Guardiola
• Yet, prior to 2008, were not a traditionally “big club”
• Global recognition is recent and investment-driven

🔵 Chelsea
• Domestic League Titles: 6 (5 since 2005)
• European Cups: 2 (2012, 2021)
• Like City, success is recent; not traditionally dominant before the Abramovich era

🟢 Why not top-tier: Their rise is recent and largely dependent on financial investment, not long-term legacy or grassroots support. While they’ve achieved more in Europe recently than Arsenal, their overall identity as a “big club” is newer.

⸻

⚪ The Chasing Pack: Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton etc

⚫⚪ Newcastle United
• Huge loyal fanbase and iconic stadium
• 4 league titles (all pre-1950s)
• No European or Premier League success
• Historically relevant but not elite in trophy count

⚪ Tottenham Hotspur
• 2 league titles, 2 UEFA Cups
• Strong London presence and solid European runs
• Reputation stronger than actual trophy haul

🔵 Everton
• 9 league titles, 5 FA Cups
• Historically very successful but not recently
• Strong Merseyside identity and big following

⸻

🧠 Logical Summary (Pyramid Style)

Tier 1 (Joint-Top):
• Celtic, Liverpool, Manchester United
→ Elite historical dominance, fanbase, European achievement, cultural importance.

Tier 2:
• Arsenal
→ Consistent presence, strong domestic record, global brand.

Tier 3 (Modern Climbers):
• Chelsea, Manchester City
→ Incredible recent success, but legacy and culture not yet equal to Tier 1.

Tier 4 (Sleeping Giants):
• Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton
→ Passionate fanbases, some historic moments, but lower achievement overall.

Prick

Constructive.

Try
‘You are a prick because x and because y’

Thanks fir sharing your AI “research” with us.

You’re welcome. Used it to back up the point I’ve been making on another thread. I dislike most of these clubs so I couldn’t care less either way but there’s no way im having the idea that Celtic are not a big club.

I’d have loved answering this if I was 12.

Or 56 if I was a Villa fan.

I’m not so sure achievements and trophies change how big a club is or not.

If a club sold out 100k every week but won nothing, they would still be big.

If a club had 10k fans in a 30k seater stadium every week but won trophies, that doesn’t make them big.

Not in a literal sense but are Monaco not a big club in France?

Won lots, Champions league pedigree

Could just post a list of average attendances over last 100 years, thats not entirely what defines a big club

They’re a good club. Just not big.

I don’t think winning trophies or getting deep into European competitions directly changes how big you are. Unless of course off the back of success you grow as a club and have a more global fan base/bigger stadium etc. and then one day you may be considered big. Big is a size, a number.

Worcesterblues

I’m not so sure achievements and trophies change how big a club is or not.

If a club sold out 100k every week but won nothing, they would still be big.

If a club had 10k fans in a 30k seater stadium every week but won trophies, that doesn’t make them big.

No, you need to have it all, winning stuff, having big following and have been doing it for a while.

Think music:
A band with a massive cult following but no hits is still important—but they’re not seen the same way as a band with a huge following and decades of platinum albums. The full package is what makes them legendary

Were Newcastle not big in the last 50 years then? We’re Leicester bigger than them during the last 10 years?

Newcastle won the Fairs Cup

Also I don't give a f*ck who is a big club. There would be no point in playing if that was at all important.

Nor me. I think the debate is silly and you’d never hear me debating with a fan of another club about us being bigger than them.

Football goes in cycles and most decent run clubs have their turn of relative success.

Don’t think Bournemouth currently care about Bolton being bigger.