18:53, Mon 20 Nov
If it turns out like this and he reverts to the perceived optimal way of playing, then there was no real need to change managers.

I think this is key to what has gone wrong - there really was no need to change the manager or the footballing philosophy full stop and the argument for needing Rooney is flawed.

a) they decided to promise a world class professional (under no pressure to do so - this is Blues, not Real Madrid) then failed to deliver

b) we are not in a position financially or FFP-wise to splash out on big name players, hence we didn't need a big-name manager in order to attract them

c) our tactics and style of play were working for once, it was unwise to tinker with them

It's just a catastrophic own-goal whichever way you look at it. By all means, bring in Tom Brady to loads of fanfare but maintain a sensible balance between the big, brash and bold moves and the quietly confident ones. They seem to have gone all out on the big, brash and bold and a) there was no need and b) it was pointless and is backfiring - this is Blues, in the championship. Even if a team isn't tearing it up, if they look organised and confident on the pitch then it tells you something about what's going on behind the scenes for the majority of the time when the fans aren't there.
19:07, Mon 20 Nov
Setting the hypothetical scenario aside, all WR needs to do is win our next match. All this nonsense will then dissipate. He needs at least two transfer windows to shape the team to how he wants.
19:14, Mon 20 Nov
WR Blue
Thanks. When I saw your answer, it looked more like an answer to b) only. So your answer to this part of a) -

what you'd like to see from a manager to make you feel like things were progressing

...would be?

Consolidation ;)

If we've fired Rooney it's cos we're in free fall. The only thing I'd need to see is us arresting that and starting to recover.
19:20, Mon 20 Nov
El Mayor
Having seen people ask for an adult conversation about Rooney on here, I've got some honest hypothetical questions for those who are not happy with the current situation.

Imagine for some hypothetical reason Rooney is dismissed, and another manager is appointed.

a) What would your expectations be for this new manager with the squad as it is, with the remaining games we have? I'm not expecting specifics, but I want to know what you'd like to see from a manager to make you feel like things were progressing.

b) What sort of timeframe do you think this new manager would have to meet those expectations? Do you think a new manager would have a honeymoon / grace period as they settled into the role?

I'm honestly not having a dig at anyone here; if anything I'm trying to work out what people want to happen and what would make them happier.

FWIW - while I think Rooney has a bit of time, I can understand just how toxic it's going to get if we don't win the next two home games. Whether that would force a change or not, I'm not sure but it wouldn't be nice. IF that did happen and someone else came in, I'd hope to God they'd be given the time to settle things back down and I'd take a season of consolidation in the middle of the table gratefully.

I think my way of answering your question would be to rewind 6-8 weeks or whatever it was, to the Saturday morning after the West Brom result.

I'd have expected John 'DvB' Useless to slowly evolve the playing style, which I believe he was trying to do, into more front footed football.

It's clear to most now (and many at the time) that ripping it up and changing style mid season overnight was always going to be a tough trick to pull off. Therefore I'd have given the manager this season to demonstrate progress and finish mid table, with a clear plan for long term style and progression the most important KPI ahead of league position.

Then, in the summer, I'd give that manager the tools to take us to the next step, i.e. more front footed and dominant away from home. More keeping the ball. Weeding out the rest of the players who haven't got a future playing that way.

Really, that's what we've got to do with Rooney now as sacking him on a big salary with 3.25 years to go is going to destroy our transfer plans in the summer you'd have thought.

Rooney only gets the sack if we're in trouble come March in my opinion, one I reckon the board share. It'll be a desperate, in emergency break glass decision. One I don't think we'll need to do.

On the other hand, I don't think Rooney will be here this time next year myself. He'll get the push next October after a year of showing no progress, just my prediction that I hope is very wrong.

Regarding any new manager would get the same as I'd have given John 'DvB' Useless, detailed above. Really, that's the common sense answer in my eyes.
“Oh Nikola Zigic”

19:45, Mon 20 Nov
Quite right. Maybe Wayne could have a chat with some of the people who contribute to SHA, they obviously know more about football than he does.
19:47, Mon 20 Nov
Rooney should be given till the end of the season

Give him the 6-7 months to get his style and everyone use to it

Let him bring in his players which surely striker and a play maker in middle of the park

Get rid of the dead wood which we will natural wastage juke hogan etheridge

Get behind him and the owners end of

Get real see the big picture next season will be the year we push for promotion.

Anything this season would be amazing but realism has to prevail
20:09, Mon 20 Nov
Setting the hypothetical scenario aside, all WR needs to do is win our next match. All this nonsense will then dissipate. He needs at least two transfer windows to shape the team to how he wants.

Win our next match ?

Sheffield Wed ?

Thats a freebie.
20:10, Mon 20 Nov
Quite right. Maybe Wayne could have a chat with some of the people who contribute to SHA, they obviously know more about football than he does.

I’d like to think WR knows more about football than anyone on this forum .

Aswell as understanding football , he also has to;

Deliver and communicate that knowledge to 25 men
Implement his style of play without regularly needing 3 goals (at least ) to win a game .
Be flexible tactically in game
Coach the players and maximise their technical and tactical ability .
Motivate the players to ensure they run through brick walls for the shirt and to get an extra 1 or 2 percent of quality and effort out of them .
Manage the press
Manage the fan base
Not sulk and throw hands in the air and storm back to dugout when an inadequate player makes a mistake, and then deliver a post match interview and say ‘I’m calm and patient ‘
Be a leader of the club.

How many key coaching/managing fundamentals does Wayne hit ?

I’m very sure over the next few months we’ll acquire high quality players via our coaching networking alone and grow our brand outside of the UK a considerable amount .

I’m also sure a coach of the ilk of nuno/ marsche/ carvahal will be in place by the end of the season .
20:11, Mon 20 Nov
Only reason we should be sacking Rooney now, imo, is if there is real danger of going down.
This club needs stability on the pitch.
Whatever you think of the sacking, it's happened, so hopefully WR can get them playing how he wants with results.
Good thread btw and for once it hasn't descended into hysteria or bickering.
Give the manager at least 2 windows.
Up the feckin Blues
21:00, Mon 20 Nov
I answer the original post

A) look at the players we’ve got and get them playing the right system that suits their strengths and minimises their weaknesses. If it means we played like we did under John 'DvB' Useless this season so be it. Maybe we could make some tweaks to how we play if we could do some wheeling and dealing in January.

B) if it’s an unmitigated disaster like Zola, KARANKA or Cotterill then 3 or 4 months. If we’re ticking along like under Clotet then much longer. If it’s a Monk type then indefinitely probably biding the arent trying to sign the academy players to their best mates agency.

FWIW I’m still in the giving Rooney time camp but I want to see what I said in A) players playing in a system that suits them and performances leading to results. There is big pressure on these next 3 games with 2 of them being winnable home games against teams in the bottom 3
21:16, Mon 20 Nov
I'm looking for Rooney to man up, admit that his methods are a little bit too advanced for the current squad and then organise the team in an effective manner, making the most of our threat from Dembele, Stansfield and Miyoshi. This would involve a reversion to 4-2-3-1.

Secondly I'm also looking for Rooney to back the players in public and re-instill the team spirit that was there just a few weeks ago.

Lastly I would give him until January to prove he actually is a decent Manager that can make the most of his resources.
Ironically if Rooney goes we will get a John 'DvB' Useless style manager to steady the ship and finish 10th, which if my memory serves me right is what many on here wanted in the 1st place😁
23:30, Mon 20 Nov
I think that regardless of who they bring in next there will be a section of the fan base who think it was a terrible idea and things are worse. Others will disagree and arguments will ensue.

Correct me if I’m wrong.
00:18, Tue 21 Nov
I don't think Rooney was the best choice we could have made but having appointed him I think we have got to give him the time now. Unless he seriously looks like relegating us. There are a lot of poor sides in this league though, so unlikely.

I had thought before the season started that this should be a season of consolidation while waiting for contracts to run down. So I would hope that any replacement manager would revert to playing in a style that the present squad is comfortable with and transitioning at a more pragmatic pace to the front-foot, high press model the owners want. This will give us space to develop the squad in the next two windows.
06:30, Tue 21 Nov
The one thing that I don't quite get is this:
The rumor's about WR started back in the summer, I'm by no way ITK, but it was more or less a given.
Why if it was nailed on that the management team was going to change did we recruit the players that we did?.
Would WR have wanted any of the additions that we made?.
Personally I think that JE knew he would be getting the bullet as soon as WR could be hired (his reaction after the WBA win pointed to that).
Surely the board/ CG should have been taking notes on players that would fit this new brand of football, seems that we wasted a lot of recruitment time?.
Instead of WR bemoaning the fact that the players are not up to his systems?.

Personally, I wouldn't get rid yet, but part of 'the project' wont involve a season in league one.
I very much doubt that WR will be given the time that Zola had, and if it doesn't pick up, he'll be gone by mid Jan latest.

Anyway, 4-0 home win Saturday, fire up the pig.