Fat Buddha CBE FEA
Realise I'm flooding this thread at the minute so apologies, but to add, I feel the same about Mike Williamson at MK Dons too. The only thing that I would say is he is certainly more of an unknown, less seasons to go off, but pretty successful in his short time so far. I'd happily explore him over an Alex Neil too - another "project" manager that could grow alongside the club.
TaylorJay84Le ModI wouldn’t dispute much of what you’ve said, I was questioning why people consider Challinor to be progressive and Neil to be a dinosaur when the data (that the club will be using) doesn’t say that at all
To me it says people have a perception of other people that’s often not based on a lot of substance.
It’s not a criticism I just find it interesting.
I suppose to simplify what I’m getting at, people would hope or believe a Challinor type (the architipal up & coming new talent ) with Knightheads backing etc could potentially ascend to a higher level than Neil’s ceiling is at.
It’s mostly potential based of course, and I suppose that was the logic in Rooney that his potential ceiling would surpass someone like a Eustace who’s pretty obviously going to be limited imo to what he can and cannot achieve.
But that’s the point for me, what are we going to do here.. are we going to double down and say no this is what we want to be this is what we are sticking too like a said Brighton/Brentford, this is our way, our philosophy or are we going to say no we were burnt once now it’s time to play it safe approach.
It will be interesting to see what we choose to do as a club.
I accept all of that, but your last point is kinda what I’m getting at. They’ll have interviewed Neil based on the data, that is them sticking to their principles, going against it because fans think he’s a dinosaur is not sticking to their philosophy or being brave, it’s the opposite.
FWIW I don’t think either will get it .
Le ModWhy is Challinor so much better than Neil? His teams average fewer passes and a lower passing accuracy than Neil’s, and their teams average the same amount of shots per game. Challinor has also never managed a game above the fourth division.
FWIW I wouldn’t select either, I just find it interesting the perception of both being at such extreme ends of the spectrum on here and on Twitter. One is considered progressive and the other a dinosaur, I find the psychology of it all quite interesting.
Ironically if we wanna go full data geek then Mowbray and Neil’s underlying numbers (before Stoke) we’re pretty similar
I reckon Neil will be one of about 10 that they interview anyway
Comparing their last full seasons, Neil seems worse on every metric than Challinor.
Less goals,less shots, less major chances, less passes, worse pass completion, less possession, more conceded.
Given we would be getting the current versions of either, the most recent stats seem the most relevant.
Of course it is really crude as a comparison since it doesn't tell us if either was over/ underperforming for the squads they had.
The data I’ve seen looked at several years. Which I think is more worthwhile given the jobs Neil did that Blues would be most interested in are Sunderland and Norwich. Given those were the two jobs where he had a budget towards the top of the league, they are the ‘Blues style’ jobs, and he went up both times.
Blues won’t have interviewed Neil or narrowed the list down with him on it based on his time at Stoke, its too small of a sample size and not a comparative job to the one we have ahead of us.
Again, I’m not advocating for him, I’m playing devils advocate.
Why do people think Neil wouldn't be a 'project' manager but TM was?
Le ModTaylorJay84Le ModI wouldn’t dispute much of what you’ve said, I was questioning why people consider Challinor to be progressive and Neil to be a dinosaur when the data (that the club will be using) doesn’t say that at all
To me it says people have a perception of other people that’s often not based on a lot of substance.
It’s not a criticism I just find it interesting.
I suppose to simplify what I’m getting at, people would hope or believe a Challinor type (the architipal up & coming new talent ) with Knightheads backing etc could potentially ascend to a higher level than Neil’s ceiling is at.
It’s mostly potential based of course, and I suppose that was the logic in Rooney that his potential ceiling would surpass someone like a Eustace who’s pretty obviously going to be limited imo to what he can and cannot achieve.
But that’s the point for me, what are we going to do here.. are we going to double down and say no this is what we want to be this is what we are sticking too like a said Brighton/Brentford, this is our way, our philosophy or are we going to say no we were burnt once now it’s time to play it safe approach.
It will be interesting to see what we choose to do as a club.
I accept all of that, but your last point is kinda what I’m getting at. They’ll have interviewed Neil based on the data, that is them sticking to their principles, going against it because fans think he’s a dinosaur is not sticking to their philosophy or being brave, it’s the opposite.
FWIW I don’t think either will get it .
Data is one thing and I know analytics is a big thing in football now, but analytics and philosophy are two completely different things imo Mod.
I’ve watched his teams it’s dross mate, has he had success? Sure I can’t say he hasn’t.
But he is not and I’d be adamant in saying this, a front footed possesion based football manager.
Not that it should matter but if people didnt like Rooney give it a few losses they’d dispise Neil, some of his comments after losing to us with previous teams he’s managed have been petulant and arrogant, I saw how he worked with the Sunderland fans and he’s a very hard bloke to like tbh.
Hopefully as you say he’s just one of many to interview, but I will stick to my guns, he would be a disastrous appointment imo, I feel that strongly about it.
This kinda nearly proves my point though
But he is not and I’d be adamant in saying this, a front footed possesion based football manager.
The data from Sunderland and Norwich says he has been and can be, in the right environment and conditions, hence he’s been interviewed.
I’m playing devils advocate again, I just feel as fans we all have preconceived ideas and this is exactly what Blues are trying not to do when making their decisions.
KRO1970Why do people think Neil wouldn't be a 'project' manager but TM was?
I don't think Mowbray was. But he was a man I could see us pushing forwards with, consistently liked wherever he went and gets his teams playing desirable football.
Le ModThis kinda nearly proves my point though
But he is not and I’d be adamant in saying this, a front footed possesion based football manager.
The data from Sunderland and Norwich says he is, hence he’s been interviewed.
Not from the games I watched im afraid, they were two very talented teams also and I’ve listed the players they had above.
His efforts at Stoke and Preston cannot just be ignored because of success at other clubs who tbh he stepped into very good situations.
For every blues and wigan that went well, look at the other crap jobs Bruce has done for example.
He had a ceiling and so does Alex Neil.
I’m done with the retreads, that’s just me.
I’ve said what I would like it’s now down to blues to decide what they like, a clear picture and philosophy would be nice for us fans to see so we know what the direction of our club is going in.
Right now I think they are stuck between two minds.
Le ModThis kinda nearly proves my point though
But he is not and I’d be adamant in saying this, a front footed possesion based football manager.
The data from Sunderland and Norwich says he has been and can be, in the right environment and conditions, hence he’s been interviewed.
I’m playing devils advocate again, I just feel as fans we all have preconceived ideas and this is exactly what Blues are trying not to do when making their decisions.
Don't get me wrong I've got nothing wrong with them interviewing the bloke. Cast the net wide and do a proper process, by all means, I like that approach for the same reason you just gave. And I'm sure blues will be looking at the data much deeper than I have and will make their own minds up at least partially based on that.
What I would say is he has no experience actually building teams to play that style. He can use available players if they're suited to play that way, but in none of his jobs has he built a side to play that style of football, he's inherited them. Whoever comes in will most likely have to help build this squad.
I get ya, but it’s not based on watching some games, it’s no coincidence that both Blues and Sunderland have both ended up with Mowbray and Neil on their lists, its because their underlying numbers are similar.
Sometimes we have to accept that our perception of someone might not be accurate, there were plenty out there who thought Mowbray was an old dinosaur for example.
I guess my wider point is let’s be open minded and trust that they’re actually trying to do things the right way rather than plucking names out of their arse because they once played for us, or because they know the agent, that goes for whoever they appoint, whether it’s someone we perhaps don’t immediately like or someone who’s a rookie or unknown.
Le ModI get ya, but it’s not based on watching some games, it’s no coincidence that both Blues and Sunderland have both ended up with Mowbray and Neil on their lists, its because their underlying numbers are similar.
Sometimes we have to accept that our perception of someone might not be accurate, there were plenty out there who thought Mowbray was an old dinosaur for example.
I guess my wider point is let’s be open minded and trust that they’re actually trying to do things the right way rather than plucking names out of their arse because they once played for us, or because they know the agent, that goes for whoever they appoint, whether it’s someone we perhaps don’t immediately like or someone who’s a rookie or unknown.
Fully agree Mod. I don't particularly want Neil - but like I did with Rooney, whoever we get in I will back until it's unfeasible to do so, and hope the club have made the right choice. I do believe this time they've got a better process and learned from their mistake, I can't criticise the appointment of Mowbray or Rowett personally, so that's really encouraging.
If it is Neil, let's give him a chance, have a proper pre season and settle on a style that suits the players we have rather than force a style on them, and not panic if we don't start well. After last season we need stability more than anything else.
CJIf it is Neil, let's give him a chance, have a proper pre season and settle on a style that suits the players we have rather than force a style on them, and not panic if we don't start well. After last season we need stability more than anything else.
This with bells on.