It sounds like this is causing you anxiety. Go have a chat with your GP, they may advise withdrawing you from the situation entirely for a time.
It sounds like this is causing you anxiety. Go have a chat with your GP, they may advise withdrawing you from the situation entirely for a time.
Naaah ... my GP would laugh at me. "after all the shit you've pulled yourself through, don't try and pretend you're getting anxious about this"
... and i'm not ... it's purely a case of do i stick to my guns knowing that he will sack me for not agreeing to do what he wants (which is his right - i don't deny that) ? ... or do i go along with his idea/plan and make myself look like a useless tosser for overseeing it all go tits up
I do think that a discussion with an employment law specialist would be worth it at this point. Unless you know already, know what you can or can’t do, and knowing what your employers can or can’t do is a good basis for decision making, because they will (or should) know this too.
I’ve found it very helpful in the past.
RagsRagsMy boss's boss (and there is no one higher i can take this to, he's a director) wants me to do something that i KNOW will be bad for the future of the company and i KNOW that, however much i cover my arse, when things DO go wrong, as they inevitably will, i am going to get fired for it.
But if i don't agree to do what he says, he will fire me now.
So i can either
1 ... refuse and i stick to my belief and prediction of it all going tits up and get fired now and go and get a job elsewhere (which will be quite easy and it will probably pay more, but may not be a job i enjoy as much), ......
or
2.. i can do what he says, and keep my job, and oversee the inevitable carnage (but in our industry, within my small enclosed circle, the "disaster" will effect my future job prospects) and get fired later
Should i
1.. get myself fired for refusing to do it
2.. do it and then get fired when it all goes wrong
Have you spoken to YOUR Boss about it.
I kind of know how you think Rags; refuse-let them sack you then take them to a tribunal
I'd get nothing from a tribunal getting fired now ... if you think about it, in theory, i can just do what they say and my jobs safe until they sack me down the line.
My boss's boss is actually THE boss and the person i report to daily. I only have a boss between me and him to look after the boring shit ... like booking my holidays etc.
Cotter v. Point Grey Golf and Country Club, 2016 - where an employer has issued directions that are lawful and not dishonest it will amount to insubordination if those directions are disobeyed. The Court noted that an employer will have just cause to dismiss an employee where the employee has been insubordinate and wilfully disobedient to the employer’s orders in a matter of substance, to the extent that the employer loses trust in the employee.
RagsRagsMy boss's boss (and there is no one higher i can take this to, he's a director) wants me to do something that i KNOW will be bad for the future of the company and i KNOW that, however much i cover my arse, when things DO go wrong, as they inevitably will, i am going to get fired for it.
But if i don't agree to do what he says, he will fire me now.
So i can either
1 ... refuse and i stick to my belief and prediction of it all going tits up and get fired now and go and get a job elsewhere (which will be quite easy and it will probably pay more, but may not be a job i enjoy as much), ......
or
2.. i can do what he says, and keep my job, and oversee the inevitable carnage (but in our industry, within my small enclosed circle, the "disaster" will effect my future job prospects) and get fired later
Should i
1.. get myself fired for refusing to do it
2.. do it and then get fired when it all goes wrong
Have you spoken to YOUR Boss about it.
I kind of know how you think Rags; refuse-let them sack you then take them to a tribunal
I'd get nothing from a tribunal getting fired now ... if you think about it, in theory, i can just do what they say and my jobs safe until they sack me down the line.
My boss's boss is actually THE boss and the person i report to daily. I only have a boss between me and him to look after the boring shit ... like booking my holidays etc.
Cotter v. Point Grey Golf and Country Club, 2016 - where an employer has issued directions that are lawful and not dishonest it will amount to insubordination if those directions are disobeyed. The Court noted that an employer will have just cause to dismiss an employee where the employee has been insubordinate and wilfully disobedient to the employer’s orders in a matter of substance, to the extent that the employer loses trust in the employee.
Spot on ... if i refuse that's exactly the attitude he will take. I'm not even arguing about whether he SHOULD sack me or not for disobeying him - i'd probably sack someone for the same reason
It's not a case of "can they do this ?" ... it's purely about whether or not i should do as i'm told .. lol
RagsRagsRagsMy boss's boss (and there is no one higher i can take this to, he's a director) wants me to do something that i KNOW will be bad for the future of the company and i KNOW that, however much i cover my arse, when things DO go wrong, as they inevitably will, i am going to get fired for it.
But if i don't agree to do what he says, he will fire me now.
So i can either
1 ... refuse and i stick to my belief and prediction of it all going tits up and get fired now and go and get a job elsewhere (which will be quite easy and it will probably pay more, but may not be a job i enjoy as much), ......
or
2.. i can do what he says, and keep my job, and oversee the inevitable carnage (but in our industry, within my small enclosed circle, the "disaster" will effect my future job prospects) and get fired later
Should i
1.. get myself fired for refusing to do it
2.. do it and then get fired when it all goes wrong
Have you spoken to YOUR Boss about it.
I kind of know how you think Rags; refuse-let them sack you then take them to a tribunal
I'd get nothing from a tribunal getting fired now ... if you think about it, in theory, i can just do what they say and my jobs safe until they sack me down the line.
My boss's boss is actually THE boss and the person i report to daily. I only have a boss between me and him to look after the boring shit ... like booking my holidays etc.
Cotter v. Point Grey Golf and Country Club, 2016 - where an employer has issued directions that are lawful and not dishonest it will amount to insubordination if those directions are disobeyed. The Court noted that an employer will have just cause to dismiss an employee where the employee has been insubordinate and wilfully disobedient to the employer’s orders in a matter of substance, to the extent that the employer loses trust in the employee.
Spot on ... if i refuse that's exactly the attitude he will take. I'm not even arguing about whether he SHOULD sack me or not for disobeying him - i'd probably sack someone for the same reason
It's not a case of "can they do this ?" ... it's purely about whether or not i should do as i'm told .. lol
👍
Only you know that Rags...
Cotter v. Point Grey Golf and Country Club, 2016 - where an employer has issued directions that are lawful and not dishonest it will amount to insubordination if those directions are disobeyed. The Court noted that an employer will have just cause to dismiss an employee where the employee has been insubordinate and wilfully disobedient to the employer’s orders in a matter of substance, to the extent that the employer loses trust in the employee.
TIL Canadian law applies in the UK.
I try and do the right thing, but sometimes dong the right thing means looking after me and my family as well, so if you don’t want to take the financial loss and/or have a dismissal on your CV, why not play the more sanguine game of expressing your concerns openly and in writing, going although no with the plan, and begin looking to change employers,
Revenge is a dish best served cold as they say, and, while it’s not necessarily revenge that you’re after, I think the same tactic might apply In this situation. You’d end up not doing what the ask you to long term, you wouldn’t have fallen short financially and you’d have stuck to your guns, albeit in a more sanguine and calculating way. When I’ve been in a similar situation, I’ve found that making the decision to do something, even playing the long game, has been cathartic.
RagsIf your GP says that change GP. It’s harassment from your gaffer basically. Constructive dismissal down the lineIt sounds like this is causing you anxiety. Go have a chat with your GP, they may advise withdrawing you from the situation entirely for a time.
Naaah ... my GP would laugh at me. "after all the shit you've pulled yourself through, don't try and pretend you're getting anxious about this"
... and i'm not ... it's purely a case of do i stick to my guns knowing that he will sack me for not agreeing to do what he wants (which is his right - i don't deny that) ? ... or do i go along with his idea/plan and make myself look like a useless tosser for overseeing it all go tits up
TandyCotter v. Point Grey Golf and Country Club, 2016 - where an employer has issued directions that are lawful and not dishonest it will amount to insubordination if those directions are disobeyed. The Court noted that an employer will have just cause to dismiss an employee where the employee has been insubordinate and wilfully disobedient to the employer’s orders in a matter of substance, to the extent that the employer loses trust in the employee.
TIL Canadian law applies in the UK.
Oh yeah!.. my bad.
Principle is same though.
Yes that would be an interesting battle, one person giving him money to stop another to carry on
Poor bloke
If there is no way you can go to an advisory board or an industry regulator then go for option 1.
Option 2 sounds like nobody will take you on after the inevitable demise. Safe option is 1.
Good luck, let us know what happens.
bluearmyfactionI tend to be along the lines of CYA memo at the start explaining why you think it is wrong and you will only do it - and will do so to the best of your ability - if given a direct order and such order is legal. CC’d to your personal email. (Maybe to chairman too.)
This is what I did when faced with a similar dilemma years ago. If it's something unsavoury, never go solely on a verbal instruction; CYA and get something in writing. A confirmation email will suffice.
Anyhow, when I took this course of action, the line manager concerned was very p****d off with me, the idea got scrapped, and I eventually outlasted him!
Good luck.