wookieAddress the root cause - the referees - not the symptom.
Why is it needed - because the laws aren’t enforced. What is the answer - enforce the laws
It’s simple if there is the commitment to do it. Adding more layers that at best require even more interpretation and at worst, another set of laws that are ignored, won’t solve the issue.
Making things that aren’t working as they should even more convoluted to make them better, isn’t the answer.
The root cause of the problem is players committing fouls and dissent.
If they do not do that then no bookings.
Why don't refs strictly enforce the rules? Because they get massively criticised for ruining games if they do.
I don't think any ref enjoys having his decisions criticised by MOTD/Sky and all over newspapers.
|The biggest problem is that the top clubs create such a fuss that they are effectively refereed to a different standard.
Sheep2Why don't refs strictly enforce the rules? Because they get massively criticised for ruining games if they do.
That's the wrong way to look at it though - in my opinion of course.
If - every time a player who is not his team's captain approaches the ref to whine, he is booked - it will stop. I saw a good example last night, two Norwich players ran at the lino to complain about what was quite obviously a correct free-kick decision, ref came over - no fuss, no bother booked them both.
If - referees rigidly start awarding penalties for wrestling and grab-ass at corners - it will stop.
If - cynically bringing somebody down from behind with no attempt to play the ball, is routinely dealt with by red card - it will stop. (Ryan Woods is still the only player ever to have been red carded for that).
If - every time a keeper tit-asses about wasting time, or an outfielder takes the piss at a throw-in, they are booked...twice and sent off if they keep doing it - it will stop.
There are lots of other examples as well.
Sure, there would be a furore for a week or two but managers would then simply have to accept it and instruct their players to stop cheating.
The problem is that the refs - or their bosses - lose their bottle and go for the path of least resistance rather than making players and managers take accountability.
TamTom TheProject BradySo much easier if refs just did their job properly and start booking and sending people off for persistent cheating etc.
A thing they’re also trying to address is that punishment for accruing bookings is retroactive. If you are cynically fouled and the player is booked for the 5th time this season then the team they’re playing next is the one who gets the advantage not the one who’s player the original offence was against.
Yeah, that’s a good point. Making the offending side at a disadvantage there and then with the actual loss of a player should be more of a deterrent than a caution which may not affect the existing match, and in the case of a subsequent ban can usually be covered anyway.
I totally get, and agree with, the idea that rules as they are should be enforced, but the point about providing a REAL disadvantage in real time is a good one.
Exactly what I said. VAR has nothing to do with it. It’s mostly about punishing the team in game rather than giving an advantage to some other team at a later point - which is unfair. If it also improves behaviour, particularly in things like dissent, good (which incidentally is starting to happen a bit because it is being punished, if somewhat inconsistently).
We aren’t going to stop referee criticism under any system anyway. There’s massive air space to fill in the media and ‘talking points’ are relished. The more controversy the better.
In my opinion.
If something is a good idea it should be adopted.
The fact that it will be inconsistently applied doesn't enter into the equation. There will always be inconsistent application of the laws until we have AI refereeing matches.
Sin Bins - I agree with. But if it's 10 minutes in a shorter and more stop start game like Rugby, make it more punishing - say 20 minutes. And automatic for a yellow card.
One of Wengers ideas I think is good. Only offside if there is clear space between the attacker and the defender. That would speed up the VAR process. And set a 30 second time limit for VAR decisions. If it takes longer than that, it's not a "clear and obvious error."
As others have said, the bigger issue is going to be the implementation of it.
When 1 player is running his mouth off at the ref, I think they will regularly get sent to the sin bin.
But what about when 5/6 players surround the ref at the same time. Who is going to the sin bin? Its definitely not going to be all 5/6 of them so now you are asking the refs to single out individuals based on the group collective. The ref will buckle and not send anyone to the sin bin.
It could actually lead to things getting worse for refs. Rather than just 1 player running their mouth and then getting in trouble, their teammates could join in just to put the pressure on the ref to send them all to the sin bin and end up sending no one.
SpikeSheep2Why don't refs strictly enforce the rules? Because they get massively criticised for ruining games if they do.
That's the wrong way to look at it though - in my opinion of course.
If - every time a player who is not his team's captain approaches the ref to whine, he is booked - it will stop. I saw a good example last night, two Norwich players ran at the lino to complain about what was quite obviously a correct free-kick decision, ref came over - no fuss, no bother booked them both.
If - referees rigidly start awarding penalties for wrestling and grab-ass at corners - it will stop.
If - cynically bringing somebody down from behind with no attempt to play the ball, is routinely dealt with by red card - it will stop. (Ryan Woods is still the only player ever to have been red carded for that).
If - every time a keeper tit-asses about wasting time, or an outfielder takes the piss at a throw-in, they are booked...twice and sent off if they keep doing it - it will stop.
There are lots of other examples as well.
Sure, there would be a furore for a week or two but managers would then simply have to accept it and instruct their players to stop cheating.
The problem is that the refs - or their bosses - lose their bottle and go for the path of least resistance rather than making players and managers take accountability.
I agree with you.
But it is clear that the bosses do not stand behind refs.
I don't think refs should be dropped for one VAR error. Especially when it is so public
If there are a series of errors then fine, but once you have a team that is VAR trained you have to let them get on with it.
I don't have a problem with Howard Webb issuing guidance and saying he thinks a decision was wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that making one error ought to lead to being dropped. It should be about how well you do on average.
It's pretty obvious there was no crackdown on timewasting in any meaningful sense. They have added time on ye, but they aren't punishing timewasting. I will believe they are when players start picking up second bookings for it.
GonzaloFloresAs others have said, the bigger issue is going to be the implementation of it.
When 1 player is running his mouth off at the ref, I think they will regularly get sent to the sin bin.
But what about when 5/6 players surround the ref at the same time. Who is going to the sin bin? Its definitely not going to be all 5/6 of them so now you are asking the refs to single out individuals based on the group collective. The ref will buckle and not send anyone to the sin bin.
It could actually lead to things getting worse for refs. Rather than just 1 player running their mouth and then getting in trouble, their teammates could join in just to put the pressure on the ref to send them all to the sin bin and end up sending no one.
Make the captain responsible for keeping the players away from the ref, if he doesn't, he'll be the one in the sin bin.
wookieAddress the root cause - the referees - not the symptom.
Why is it needed - because the laws aren’t enforced. What is the answer - enforce the laws
It’s simple if there is the commitment to do it. Adding more layers that at best require even more interpretation and at worst, another set of laws that are ignored, won’t solve the issue.
Making things that aren’t working as they should even more convoluted to make them better, isn’t the answer.
The root cause of the problem is players committing fouls and dissent.
If they do not do that then no bookings.
Why don't refs strictly enforce the rules? Because they get massively criticised for ruining games if they do.
I don't think any ref enjoys having his decisions criticised by MOTD/Sky and all over newspapers.
|The biggest problem is that the top clubs create such a fuss that they are effectively refereed to a different standard.
Why do players do it? Because they get away with it
Why do they get away with it? Because the laws to stop it happening aren’t enforced
Why aren’t they enforced? Because referees (and their governing body) are too afraid to incur the wrath of every person and their dog
I’ll concede that we are all the root cause if you want to take it that far - either way adding sin bins is a ridiculous way to solve a problem that already has the solution in place should the referees choose to use it.
wookiewookieAddress the root cause - the referees - not the symptom.
Why is it needed - because the laws aren’t enforced. What is the answer - enforce the laws
It’s simple if there is the commitment to do it. Adding more layers that at best require even more interpretation and at worst, another set of laws that are ignored, won’t solve the issue.
Making things that aren’t working as they should even more convoluted to make them better, isn’t the answer.
The root cause of the problem is players committing fouls and dissent.
If they do not do that then no bookings.
Why don't refs strictly enforce the rules? Because they get massively criticised for ruining games if they do.
I don't think any ref enjoys having his decisions criticised by MOTD/Sky and all over newspapers.
|The biggest problem is that the top clubs create such a fuss that they are effectively refereed to a different standard.
Why do players do it? Because they get away with it
Why do they get away with it? Because the laws to stop it happening aren’t enforced
Why aren’t they enforced? Because referees (and their governing body) are too afraid to incur the wrath of every person and their dog
I’ll concede that we are all the root cause if you want to take it that far - either way adding sin bins is a ridiculous way to solve a problem that already has the solution in place should the referees choose to use it.
I don't know if it IS ridiculous, although I do agree with the points that you've made. I do like the idea of players being punished 'in game' for dissent and timewasting, rather than their next opponents potentially benefiting from it.
wookiewookieAddress the root cause - the referees - not the symptom.
Why is it needed - because the laws aren’t enforced. What is the answer - enforce the laws
It’s simple if there is the commitment to do it. Adding more layers that at best require even more interpretation and at worst, another set of laws that are ignored, won’t solve the issue.
Making things that aren’t working as they should even more convoluted to make them better, isn’t the answer.
The root cause of the problem is players committing fouls and dissent.
If they do not do that then no bookings.
Why don't refs strictly enforce the rules? Because they get massively criticised for ruining games if they do.
I don't think any ref enjoys having his decisions criticised by MOTD/Sky and all over newspapers.
|The biggest problem is that the top clubs create such a fuss that they are effectively refereed to a different standard.
Why do players do it? Because they get away with it
Why do they get away with it? Because the laws to stop it happening aren’t enforced
Why aren’t they enforced? Because referees (and their governing body) are too afraid to incur the wrath of every person and their dog
I’ll concede that we are all the root cause if you want to take it that far - either way adding sin bins is a ridiculous way to solve a problem that already has the solution in place should the referees choose to use it.
I don't know if it IS ridiculous, although I do agree with the points that you've made. I do like the idea of players being punished 'in game' for dissent and timewasting, rather than their next opponents potentially benefiting from it.
I get the point you are making but we already have a system where if you get 5 yellow cards you miss the next game which doesn’t benefit anyone other than the next team.
If the laws are enforced as they stand now, there will in all likelihood, be an avalanche of yellow cards to start with. Whether this turns into an avalanche of red cards depends if the players stop doing what they are doing during that game. It is the same for everyone then.
I think sin bins would be the final straw for me in terms of tinkering with the game. Maybe I’m a bit old-fashioned. Having said that, I would like to see AI run VAR…..
I'm old-fashioned too, and am not a fan of VAR. I don't like the 'time' principle of it, but that's been done to death on here, so I won't bother with that again. Without tinkering too much with the 'five yellow cards' system which, as you rightly say, is benefiting the next opponents (and couled be for fouls committed), I would still like to see dissent and timewasting (non-VAR offences, ppurely the ref's decision) punished there and then to mete out the punishment.
Fouls are often accidental, and of course we don't want players punished for an accident. Dissent and timewasting are avoidable and it would seem to me to be not a bad idea to give the other side an advantage if your side can't control it's players.
Exactly. The team offended against the benefit as the offence is committed against them, not unidentified team in the future who may actually be relegation or title rivals. It’s just fairer. It’s not just or even mostly about improving behaviour but hopefully will be a by product. Lots of other sports use the sin bin.
It is only fairer if the decision is right.
The last major introduction to the game was VAR. Sounded great in principle but has become more and more of a shambles as time has gone on. All it has really done is move the problem from the pitch, to a portacabin and then sometimes back to the pitch (or pitch side TV) to still get some decisions fundamentally wrong.
Even if I thought sin bins were necessary and a worthwhile introduction, I have no confidence whatsoever it will be introduced, managed and reviewed competently.
There will be process creep, inevitably VAR will be involved (should it have been given as a straight red or should it be a sin bin? for example).
I say this as someone who thought VAR would be a good addition to the game - I don’t believe that now. I would continue to use it for ‘line decisions’ but not for decisions based on interpretation and opinion.
But then again I’m a miserable old sod 🤪
I don’t think they’re ‘necessary’, but worth a try. The accumulation of cards doesn’t make the decision right. There isn’t really a penalty for a yellow card within the game, as I said some other team gets the benefit.
There are issues about they’re given for and how they will be implemented but I think it works well in other sports (unlike VAR in a number of ways).