Bordesley not Small HeathnewblueThe teams at the top of our league all look to me good at passing the ball. How many times for years now have people moaned on here about how so many of the teams that play us pass the ball and move better?
Teams can play direct and do it effectively. As it happens, usually in the midst of ‘launching it’ teams that have been successful at it turn out to have very good players as well who can launch it accurately and then get it down. Absolutely nothing wrong with going long when the situation present itself. It when it’s hit and hope it’s hopeless.
I want my team to pass and move in midfield, on the wings, and up front. Not give the ball to the centre half in the 6 yrd box, complete half a dozen passes in and around your area before eventually being boxed in by your own corner flag, ive never got that and never will even if it means being a dinosaur
That’s not playing out from the back though, that’s defenders passing the ball to each other repeatedly and going nowhere . There’s a big difference.
You put it far better than I did and I think you are correct, the ball has to be moved far quicker than we move it, its obvious to play this way we need far better players.
... or better coaches
Odd position to take Rags, given that two of them are thought good enough to coach at international level. Rather points more to the players and the failings of JE to drill the required basics into them when he was here.
At international level they are coaching players who are usually largely already playing that system ... (well actually. Ireland don't play that way so O'Shea isn't coaching it at international level) .... the test at Blues is to take players who are obviously competent footballers and coach them to be able to play in a different way.
I didn't mean they were crap coaches per se - i meant they don't seem to be able to coach the Blues payers into playing this style.
In fact i didn't say they were crap at all ... i just said we need "better coaches" ... ie better at coaching players into changing the style.
Tha Project OBEBang it to a winger who takes it to the line then crosses for some Nat Lofthouse bastard to put ball and keeper in the net.
That’s football.
I was also taught to ensure that when I played as a flying left winger to ensure the lace of the ball was the other side of the Centre Forward’s head when I crossed it to avoid any need for stitches on the brow.
theAtlasBordesley not Small HeathnewblueThe teams at the top of our league all look to me good at passing the ball. How many times for years now have people moaned on here about how so many of the teams that play us pass the ball and move better?
Teams can play direct and do it effectively. As it happens, usually in the midst of ‘launching it’ teams that have been successful at it turn out to have very good players as well who can launch it accurately and then get it down. Absolutely nothing wrong with going long when the situation present itself. It when it’s hit and hope it’s hopeless.
I want my team to pass and move in midfield, on the wings, and up front. Not give the ball to the centre half in the 6 yrd box, complete half a dozen passes in and around your area before eventually being boxed in by your own corner flag, ive never got that and never will even if it means being a dinosaur
That’s not playing out from the back though, that’s defenders passing the ball to each other repeatedly and going nowhere . There’s a big difference.
It's done to try to draw the opposition out and if done well, is extremely effective in providing more space up field. If you draw the opposition out you'll be much much more effective playing in the midfield, on the wings and up front, and able to play much more attractive football into the bargain, because there'll be more space and less opposition players overloading the areas you're trying to play in. It demands intelligence on the part of the defenders in knowing when to clear it and the goalie being able to play confidently on the ball in tight spaces, which we don't have.
I love it! The days of cloggers has gone!! Football is football and has to be played that way. Find a man and don’t just use the ball as an outlet to relieve pressure. I’ve been wishing for this brand of football for years.
It’s bloody brilliant 👍🏻
All of the current top 7 in the Championship play a possession based game.
I actually didn’t think we were doing too bad a job playing out prior to the change of manager. It may not have been text book but we certainly havn’t gone from a kick and rush team to a passing team overnight. The difference isn’t as great as some might think from what I’ve watched, which is all bar a couple of games.
From what I remember we started to introduce it using one basic pattern that would be employed for the first 15 minutes along with a high press, then we reverted to sitting deeper and playing it long.
I was pleased to see it introduced and thought we looked good while we did it and was always frustrated when we sat back. Maybe that was JE’s way of introducing it - do it for 15 - 20 minutes lads, then go back to what you know? Maybe the board were frustrated at his insistence on not pushing it too far too soon? Obviously these are “maybe’s” but if they’re close to the truth then JE was right and knew the players well enough. None of it would surprise me and it makes the Rooney appointment even more interesting.
The anti-Rooney’s will obviously seize on fact that JE was right, the board effed up and Rooney is obviously a worse coach than JE and hasn’t bothered to learn the way John did. All very valid points. Despite my belief in, and backing of, Rooney that’s pretty undeniable IF it’s more than a maybe.
What it would reinforce is the views posted on here that Rooney was basically set up to fail. Even if he recognises that the players aren’t ready to play front foot possession based football he can’t not try it because the board sacked the last bloke who refused. So Rooney has to go for it. Drill the players until they get it. Take the losses and the criticism until it clicks and hopefully win the fans back when it does.
That doesn’t make Rooney a worse coach, it makes him a coach with a remit that can’t be fulfilled quickly given the players we’ve got. He underestimated just how basic some of our players are and/or overestimated how quickly even international level coaches can coach this in to them. JE was an international coach as well, but he at least had time to find out before it was thrust on him as the club ethos.
All hypothetical, all ifs buts and maybes, obviously. I’ve said before I trust Rooney to come good and I stick by that. If he does then it means we get closer to where we want to be quicker than we would have under JE and have the Rooney revenue factor on top, which improves the squad, which gets us closer to… etc. Biiiig chuffing if as of now but turbo charges the season/next season if it pays off. The board have gambled and will need a pay off, with or without Rooney but even if he fails they’re here for the long haul. ATM it looks like a mistake but IF it pays off it sets us up for a proper tilt next season which is what they promised.
So: he’s here, we’re there and things will, eventually, get better. Until then buckle up. It’s a long long road and it’s a bumpy uphill struggle. Again.
KRO kids, you sing it but you’ve got to mean it.
]
At international level they are coaching players who are usually largely already playing that system ... (well actually. Ireland don't play that way so O'Shea isn't coaching it at international level) .... the test at Blues is to take players who are obviously competent footballers and coach them to be able to play in a different way.
I didn't mean they were crap coaches per se - i meant they don't seem to be able to coach the Blues payers into playing this style.
In fact i didn't say they were crap at all ... i just said we need "better coaches" ... ie better at coaching players into changing the style.
Which coaches will be available to do it better and quicker? What if we bring them in and they can’t do it either? Then we’d have wasted time and a lot of money only to find it really was the players all along. Better to wait and see. And review CG’s recruitment methods.
It's done to try to draw the opposition out and if done well, is extremely effective in providing more space up field. If you draw the opposition out you'll be much much more effective playing in the midfield, on the wings and up front, and able to play much more attractive football into the bargain, because there'll be more space and less opposition players overloading the areas you're trying to play in. It demands intelligence on the part of the defenders in knowing when to clear it and the goalie being able to play confidently on the ball in tight spaces, which we don't have.
Maybe we should simplify it by adopting the Brighton trick of getting the defender to put his foot on the ball and stand still until the opposition move to it, rather than to manipulate space by passing along the back line?
Bordesley not Small HeathnewblueThe teams at the top of our league all look to me good at passing the ball. How many times for years now have people moaned on here about how so many of the teams that play us pass the ball and move better?
Teams can play direct and do it effectively. As it happens, usually in the midst of ‘launching it’ teams that have been successful at it turn out to have very good players as well who can launch it accurately and then get it down. Absolutely nothing wrong with going long when the situation present itself. It when it’s hit and hope it’s hopeless.
I want my team to pass and move in midfield, on the wings, and up front. Not give the ball to the centre half in the 6 yrd box, complete half a dozen passes in and around your area before eventually being boxed in by your own corner flag, ive never got that and never will even if it means being a dinosaur
Football has moved on and the worlds most successful sides ALL dominate possession.We also have to move on and try to play this way but to me, that doesn’t mean passing it around your own 6 yard box. It does involve, as you say, passing and moving and good fitness/athleticism.
A good coach can teach his players to play this way but obviously, the jury is out on whether that coach is WR.
I just think that we have to give him until the end of the season to implement his own ideas. Let’s give him a fair crack of the whip and then if we aren’t progressing, get rid. For me it’s that simple.
]
At international level they are coaching players who are usually largely already playing that system ... (well actually. Ireland don't play that way so O'Shea isn't coaching it at international level) .... the test at Blues is to take players who are obviously competent footballers and coach them to be able to play in a different way.
I didn't mean they were crap coaches per se - i meant they don't seem to be able to coach the Blues payers into playing this style.
In fact i didn't say they were crap at all ... i just said we need "better coaches" ... ie better at coaching players into changing the style.
Which coaches will be available to do it better and quicker? What if we bring them in and they can’t do it either? Then we’d have wasted time and a lot of money only to find it really was the players all along. Better to wait and see. And review CG’s recruitment methods.
What people seem to misunderstand is that JE's preferred method of playing is exactly what Knighthead and Cook have asked Rooney to implement. Kidderminster were known as "the non-League Barcelona". The targets given to JE were first season : "stay up" second season :"progress" and his planning was very much based around meeting those targets (in fact he was on course to over-achieve) until the summer when we lose 5 or 6 players whose wages are crippling the club in terms of FFP.
When Cook went to JE and said that he wanted to change the style immediately, JE gave a realistic answer and said he couldn't or wouldn't and that didn't align with the previous targets given.
The club then sacked JE saying his thoughts didn't align with those of the Board. Well, as it's their club they can sack anyone they want and appoint whoever they want and it could have been Dean Smith, Rosie Jones or anyone - but they chose Rooney.
Rooney accepted the job on the terms laid down by Cook - the ones that JE had rejected - and obviously thought that he had the ability to change the existing players.
Also Rooney as manager has a much better chance of appealing to investors and, as Cook points out, the question of investment will influence every decision made at the club.
In my opinion it isn't necessarily finding the coaches that can change the footballing philosophy over time (JE could have done that) but the fact that Knighthead want it "now" - something else that Cook said at the presentation
I agree the best teams play this way but they also have the best players. The problem with building from the back is that it is incredibly risky when you're a weaker team in the division. Just look at Burnley - dominated the championship doing it because they had the best team by a long distance, but this season they've constantly played themselves into trouble because they're one of the worst teams in the division. Luton sit above them because they've been more pragmatic and play to their strengths.
It reminds me of when we went up under McLeish and had our best-ever PL finish. It was horrible football to get promoted with but it suited us perfectly the following season when we were going to be the underdogs. I still maintain there are multiple ways to play. Arsenal play possession football building from the back, but when teams sit deep and shut off their wide players, they become a blunt force. Man City have learnt to adapt beyond that by going direct to Haaland when they need to. If the best manager in the world can win a treble by sometimes hitting it long to a tall centre forward then it can't such a bad way to play.
Ultimately, the best teams will mix a variety of styles.
So the problem is the board and everybody needs to get off Rooney’s case, gotcha 🫡
Rags]
At international level they are coaching players who are usually largely already playing that system ... (well actually. Ireland don't play that way so O'Shea isn't coaching it at international level) .... the test at Blues is to take players who are obviously competent footballers and coach them to be able to play in a different way.
I didn't mean they were crap coaches per se - i meant they don't seem to be able to coach the Blues payers into playing this style.
In fact i didn't say they were crap at all ... i just said we need "better coaches" ... ie better at coaching players into changing the style.
Which coaches will be available to do it better and quicker? What if we bring them in and they can’t do it either? Then we’d have wasted time and a lot of money only to find it really was the players all along. Better to wait and see. And review CG’s recruitment methods.
What people seem to misunderstand is that JE's preferred method of playing is exactly what Knighthead and Cook have asked Rooney to implement. Kidderminster were known as "the non-League Barcelona". The targets given to JE were first season : "stay up" second season :"progress" and his planning was very much based around meeting those targets (in fact he was on course to over-achieve) until the summer when we lose 5 or 6 players whose wages are crippling the club in terms of FFP.
When Cook went to JE and said that he wanted to change the style immediately, JE gave a realistic answer and said he couldn't or wouldn't and that didn't align with the previous targets given.
The club then sacked JE saying his thoughts didn't align with those of the Board. Well, as it's their club they can sack anyone they want and appoint whoever they want and it could have been Dean Smith, Rosie Jones or anyone - but they chose Rooney.
Rooney accepted the job on the terms laid down by Cook - the ones that JE had rejected - and obviously thought that he had the ability to change the existing players.
Also Rooney as manager has a much better chance of appealing to investors and, as Cook points out, the question of investment will influence every decision made at the club.
In my opinion it isn't necessarily finding the coaches that can change the footballing philosophy over time (JE could have done that) but the fact that Knighthead want it "now" - something else that Cook said at the presentation
And that is exactly what worries me.
I talked on another thread about Newcastle. Their owner's plan is one of very carefully staged progression: stay up, top 10, europe, CL, title. They're willing to take time and perhaps because of that lack of immediacy, they're ahead of schedule. They also hired a manager with a track record of improving players - something they knew they'd need because they're restricted in what they can spend.
We should be trying to be the Newcastle of the Championship.