SHA Small Heath Alliance

Yeah but the wheels site is miles from St Andrews and no buses Tom.

... "and i can't pop into Morrisons to get my paper on the way down"

Rags

There was never a straight swap on offer because it would always be 2 separate property transactions and whatever the circumstances of the council there is a need to achieve best consideration for land assets. In addition the wheels site is owned by the council’s general fund, whereas council housing is through the housing revenue account. Both accounts are ring fenced to stop any manipulation of funding sources, it’s surprising that even some quite senior officials struggle to understand this. The issues with the finances at the council are connected with the general fund. There has been definite interest in some sort of deal for the Wheels site in whatever form. Personally I don’t see the commissioners being an issue because the need to achieve best consideration for the wheels site is unchanged. A bigger issue is that the council is losing a lot of senior staff that have been involved in this.

Hi there ..

"it’s surprising that even some quite senior officials struggle to understand this"

Yes... and even "less than senior" officials.

As you probably know (based on the fact that your post shows knowledge), that exact scenario was being openly discussed unofficially across BCC as "the ideal" but i don't think anyone had ever sat down and thought it through in terms of practicalities and exactly how it was possible.

Something else no-one there seems to quite know the reasoning behind ... which you might ... do you know why any Wheels Site development was in the Bordesley Park Area Action Plan back in 2020 and then the remediation works seemed to be covered elsewhere ... and yet the outline planning permission puts it all back into the Bordesley Park Area Action Plan ?


Also .. in your post from 17th Dec you said

"One aspect from the apparent deal was to swap the Wheels site at least in part for the St Andrews site which would then be used for Council Housing. I found earlier that the commissioners are to stop the Council house building programme in Birmingham. Apparently there is an article in the mail about this. So it looks like that component of the deal will fall down. Of course it doesn’t stop the club selling the site to someone else"

Do you know if that "stop" on the Council House Building programme ever came to fruition ? -- i only ever heard it as a rumour

Although the Housing Revenue Account does not have same scale of financial issues as the general fund, there are issues with the need for substantial reinvestment of the existing council housing stock and this is placing pressure on the councils new council housing programme. In all fairness some of this is officer driven rather than commissioner’s. I don’t think a decision has been made because there are currently schemes on site but my feeling is that the scale of the programme will be wind down substantially with a schemes being pushed to housing associations rather then council housing

Rags

There was never a straight swap on offer because it would always be 2 separate property transactions and whatever the circumstances of the council there is a need to achieve best consideration for land assets. In addition the wheels site is owned by the council’s general fund, whereas council housing is through the housing revenue account. Both accounts are ring fenced to stop any manipulation of funding sources, it’s surprising that even some quite senior officials struggle to understand this. The issues with the finances at the council are connected with the general fund. There has been definite interest in some sort of deal for the Wheels site in whatever form. Personally I don’t see the commissioners being an issue because the need to achieve best consideration for the wheels site is unchanged. A bigger issue is that the council is losing a lot of senior staff that have been involved in this.

Hi there ..

"it’s surprising that even some quite senior officials struggle to understand this"

Yes... and even "less than senior" officials.

As you probably know (based on the fact that your post shows knowledge), that exact scenario was being openly discussed unofficially across BCC as "the ideal" but i don't think anyone had ever sat down and thought it through in terms of practicalities and exactly how it was possible.

Something else no-one there seems to quite know the reasoning behind ... which you might ... do you know why any Wheels Site development was in the Bordesley Park Area Action Plan back in 2020 and then the remediation works seemed to be covered elsewhere ... and yet the outline planning permission puts it all back into the Bordesley Park Area Action Plan ?


Also .. in your post from 17th Dec you said

"One aspect from the apparent deal was to swap the Wheels site at least in part for the St Andrews site which would then be used for Council Housing. I found earlier that the commissioners are to stop the Council house building programme in Birmingham. Apparently there is an article in the mail about this. So it looks like that component of the deal will fall down. Of course it doesn’t stop the club selling the site to someone else"

Do you know if that "stop" on the Council House Building programme ever came to fruition ? -- i only ever heard it as a rumour

Although the Housing Revenue Account does not have same scale of financial issues as the general fund, there are issues with the need for substantial reinvestment of the existing council housing stock and this is placing pressure on the councils new council housing programme. In all fairness some of this is officer driven rather than commissioner’s. I don’t think a decision has been made because there are currently schemes on site but my feeling is that the scale of the programme will be wind down substantially with a schemes being pushed to housing associations rather then council housing

Cheers "Andy"

Thanks for this update. The other thing that would be good to get people's thoughts on is any potential competitor to buy the site. I have nothing to do with land development so have limited knowledge but access to wheels isn't great for such large warehouses (they prefer direct access to the motorway network and we know how clogged with traffic the ring road and Aston Expressway can be).

Who else would realistically want to buy the entirety of wheels to redevelop? It's not suitable for housing. And, for industrial warehousing is there any developers out there with the financing to buy the site that comes with less than ideal access?

One last thought from me.

This is very exciting for Blues. But, it's also very exciting for the city. The West Midlands is missing this type of large venue for stuff like concerts and other sporting events. I'd like to think regardless of who you support the greater good of our city and the economic value is clear to see.

Very helpful Rags. Thank you.

As things stand, I’d have thought the Wheels site would be arguably more valuable to Blues than to others. There are plenty of better locations for warehouses but are there better locations for our club to build a stadium? Not so sure….

If Wagner wants it, I can’t see many others outbidding him. It may end up costing him a lot more than he’d originally planned but it’s not like they’ve skint. If this is a long-term project and a new stadium with the ability to host events etc is a key pillar of that project, I don’t see it stopping him.

Rags, thanks for the v detailed info. Fascinating and informative.

When you say you have (quite rightly) agreed not to post such and such detail about upcoming meetings etc, I am just intrigued how you have access to all this info.

As things stand, I’d have thought the Wheels site would be arguably more valuable to Blues than to others. There are plenty of better locations for warehouses but are there better locations for our club to build a stadium? Not so sure….

If Wagner wants it, I can’t see many others outbidding him. It may end up costing him a lot more than he’d originally planned but it’s not like they’ve skint. If this is a long-term project and a new stadium with the ability to host events etc is a key pillar of that project, I don’t see it stopping him.

Would be warehouse owners want cheap land and good motorway access.

They won’t outbid Blues for a bit of land which is far away from the M6 through very crowded neighbourhoods and ring roads.

Tom TheProject Brady

As things stand, I’d have thought the Wheels site would be arguably more valuable to Blues than to others. There are plenty of better locations for warehouses but are there better locations for our club to build a stadium? Not so sure….

If Wagner wants it, I can’t see many others outbidding him. It may end up costing him a lot more than he’d originally planned but it’s not like they’ve skint. If this is a long-term project and a new stadium with the ability to host events etc is a key pillar of that project, I don’t see it stopping him.

Would be warehouse owners want cheap land and good motorway access.

They won’t outbid Blues for a bit of land which is far away from the M6 through very crowded neighbourhoods and ring roads.

Except any major development on that site will obviously need major infrastructure developments too. No way could the area cope with 60k people turning up for a match/concert or whatever. So the road network will have to have massive investment along with public transport infrastructure.

Wouldn't that be the same for any development of the site, so whatever use it is put to infrastructure needs to be improved ? Obviously different sorts dependant on what it get used for but surely part of the development plan.

Shabby Grifter

Thanks for this update. The other thing that would be good to get people's thoughts on is any potential competitor to buy the site. I have nothing to do with land development so have limited knowledge but access to wheels isn't great for such large warehouses (they prefer direct access to the motorway network and we know how clogged with traffic the ring road and Aston Expressway can be).

Who else would realistically want to buy the entirety of wheels to redevelop? It's not suitable for housing. And, for industrial warehousing is there any developers out there with the financing to buy the site that comes with less than ideal access?

The V*lla?

Thanks for this update. The other thing that would be good to get people's thoughts on is any potential competitor to buy the site. I have nothing to do with land development so have limited knowledge but access to wheels isn't great for such large warehouses (they prefer direct access to the motorway network and we know how clogged with traffic the ring road and Aston Expressway can be).

Who else would realistically want to buy the entirety of wheels to redevelop? It's not suitable for housing. And, for industrial warehousing is there any developers out there with the financing to buy the site that comes with less than ideal access?

If i was wanting to buy a site close to Birmingham for warehousing i wouldn't be looking at the Wheels site.

As others have stated it isn't the proximity to final destination that is important .... you need ease of access for "artics" up to 14 metres ... and then ease for vans to final destination. Since the centre of Birmingham wouldn't be final destination for 100% of a warehouse then, in MY opinion, The Wheels site is actually too close to the centre to be viewed favourably. You don't want goods from the warehouse tracking back over the same route they took to the warehouse.

On that basis, on that side of the City Centre there is a massive site in Saltley - and then, in a few years time, there will be a brand new site at the old LDV site in Drews Lane in Washwood Heath built alongside the HS2 maintenance sheds and depots which will be over 120 acres i believe (they have already commenced with compulsory purchases of residential houses). The access to that from the motorway will be far superior than that to the Wheels Site.

But transportation logistics is not my forté or specialist subject.

That’s what I meant, regardless of the use, the infrastructure has to be improved so the value will increase.

As things stand, I’d have thought the Wheels site would be arguably more valuable to Blues than to others. There are plenty of better locations for warehouses but are there better locations for our club to build a stadium? Not so sure….

If Wagner wants it, I can’t see many others outbidding him. It may end up costing him a lot more than he’d originally planned but it’s not like they’ve skint. If this is a long-term project and a new stadium with the ability to host events etc is a key pillar of that project, I don’t see it stopping him.

"As things stand, I’d have thought the Wheels site would be arguably more valuable to Blues than to others. "

Here's something i don't know the answer to - but can't be discounted. In fact may be even more likely

Look at our new partners announced yesterday. Look at the person behind Oak View Group - Tim Leiweke ... then look at the other person behind/alongside him ...... Philip Anschutz. When you look at Anschutz you are looking at SERIOUS amounts of money.

It is entirely possible that someone else may build the stadium complex and lease it to Blues. After all, we only really need it a max of 25 days out of 365.

Partnering with Tim Leiweke / Philip Anschutz - both of whom are serious stadium complex builders is better than them eyeing up the site without us by their side.