QBBC2Very eloquently put indeed.
Out of interest, and assuming a worst case scenario if you will indulge me for a second, can we try to “quantify” what you mean?
At what point is your definition of failure confirmed, resulting in a change having to be made.
If we look with a few games to go to be in serious danger of being relegated?
If we are relegated?
If we go into league 2?
From my perspective it would be “previous” to make a change now. However I suspect we will be forced into it later this season.
What is happening on the pitch is utter chaos, with worse than Sunday league levels of defending, and no discernible patterns of play - basically massive regression in results and performances, individually and collectively.
Fine, give him time, but nothing I’ve seen so far gives me any confidence that, sadly, and I mean sadly, a change will not be necessary to prevent relegation.
What is your cut off point?
I don’t have a cut off point tbh. I don’t know what the owners definition of failure is but failure, to me, is either not learning or giving up. Trying isn’t failure. Teething problems aren’t failure. Taking time to get it right isn’t failure. Panicking and knee jerk reactions are failure.
Rooney’s inherited a squad of crocks, misfits and journeymen and he’s struggling to implement his ideas. From what I’ve read and heard from those privy to what’s going on behind the scenes I’m of the opinion that it’s not Rooney that is the problem so much as the squad he has inherited but until Rooney has had both time and at least two transfer windows I cannot fairly judge whether it’s him or the squad. If that time includes relegation then so be it. I’ll leave it to the board to decide if Rooney should stay or go.
We’ve been relegated before and came back, with far worse owners, and even reached the Prem despite our foundations being made of sand. This time we’re building properly so any “failure” can’t properly be judged until the boards long term plans either have or haven’t materialised, with or without Rooney at the helm.
I can't believe how much further on an opinion i have to yourself.
Personally i don't think the players are crooks, journeymen or misfits. Think it's the best team we have had in years and they proved they can be competetive in this league. Otherwise we would of been as poor as we are now from the first game of the season.
I also don't think relegation with those players can be seen as we are building properly. I would see it as a disaster and one of the worst managerial feats i can remember if he does take us down.
Shows how split our fans are i guess. Some may be happy to continue the way we are like yourself and see his time so far as progress, some may think this is shit and would rather win games and don't see any progress like me.
The ultimate decider will be league position and attendances. I personally think it's a hard sell for fans too expect them to pay money for games but ask them to only judge rooney in August 2024.
QBBC2QBBC2DaveEveryone going on about he needs to sign his own players, then why is he managing this group of players in the first place?!? This team has more than enough in it to be performing better than it is.
Terrible decision to bring him in when we did, this is more on Cooke than it is Rooney. Although I have little confidence in either. If they both went I wouldn’t be the slightest bit bothered.
Exactly what I said earlier, Cook should be hitched to this wagon and if Rooney goes he should to.
I’m quite a black and white person and only one of three things has happened here with regards to Rooney not performing (unless anyone can correct me)
Let’s remember he was linked since the summer so almost certainly knew in July he was gonna get it
1) he misjudged the ability of the players, therefore he can’t judge ability, he shouldn’t be in role.
2) he over estimated his and his coaches ability
To coach players and improve their ability, therefore he shouldn’t be in role:
3) he’s a crap manager, therefore he shouldn’t be in role.
Before anyone says about ‘time’ this has been 1/6 of our season now, you can’t afford to waste that time, and we have close to another 1/6 to go before he can even sign someone, and who knows if he’s even any good at that.
How much time would you give a manager and his coaching staff if he had a good cv and track record of judging ability but had the same run of results in his first dozen games?
Asking for the next manager.
Same amount of time.
I'm curious, why do you want to give more time than a dozen games to a manager who is producing worse performances than the previous one, scoring less, conceding more and just to top it off, can barely win a game of football which has taken us from 6th to nervously looking over shoulders. What has you itching for more?
If performances were good i could sort of understand, but they haven't been. They have been utter shit and that is putting it mildly. Every single footballing fact proves this before you say 'well i think we have been good'.
Personally I think he should have more time because, sometimes, improvement takes time. I’m ok with that. I’m willing to trust that the work going on behind the scenes is sincerely dedicated to long term, sustainable growth and that, while immediate gains would be nice, they’re often a sign of just papering over the cracks. How many times have you seen that accusation on here over the years? The new owners and manager aren’t here to paper over cracks. They’re not even here to fill the cracks and redecorate, they’re here to rebuild properly from the foundations up because they understand that it’s the only way to improve success sustainably. That takes time. It also takes bravery given the fickle nature of the modern day fan.
I think they, that’s Rooney and the squad, should be given not only more time but a lot more understanding and a more supportive environment from the fans because it’s easier to learn and progress and be motivated in a positive environment. Support and constructive criticism are key, from everyone - owners, managers, club staff and supporters.
I’m prepared to give them time and trust because I’m not afraid of failure. I’m not afraid of change. I’m not afraid of the opinions of people who’ve never actually done what I’m trying to achieve. And if I do fail I learn from it and I know that, often, that learning doesn’t always yield immediate results and sometimes leads to more failures before I get it right.
I like the fact that both the new owners and Rooney are being open, honest and accessible. It’s what fans have been crying out for for years.
I trust in the plan and I’m ok waiting for the payoff. I’ve accepted that it needs time to bare fruit. They’re sowing seeds, not magic beans.
I trust that Rooney will improve things because, despite the current difficulties, people who are actually, genuinely “in the know” believe he has what it takes to succeed as a manager. For now I’ll take their opinion over the mewlings of a bunch of hysterical pipe fitters and office workers. And if he doesn’t I trust the owners to replace him when they’re sure the time is right, not as a knee jerk reaction to a slower than desirable start.
Who are these people genuinely
'In the know'???
Colleen and Kai?
I'm not a booer or normally a dissenter but there's no evidence whatsoever that Rooney has what it takes to succeed as a championship manager imo.
Hope I'm very wrong btw
Relegation would be an absolute disaster. Who is to say we’ll come back up, or if the owners will even stick with us. They did say they wouldn’t have bought us if we went down last season.
They’ve also said they here for the next 10 years atleast. People say lots of things though. Not all are true
Rab C NesbittThey’ve also said they here for the next 10 years atleast. People say lots of things though. Not all are true
Both statement could be true, tbf. Personally, I think that they may feel that they've invested too much to be thrown off course by a relegation, but it would be pretty terrible for us a club.I don't think that it will get to that stage though.
QBBC2Rooney’s inherited a squad of crocks, misfits and journeymen
Who were winning games and looking set for a decent season.
The revision of people's opinions of the playing squad in order to defend world class wayne is genuinely hilarious.
That’s reassuring if true, cause they are doing a lot of good off the field. I still think relegation would be a disaster, it’s hard enough rebuilding in the championship, let alone dropping another division.
Who are these people genuinely
'In the know'???
Colleen and Kai?
I'm not a booer or normally a dissenter but there's no evidence whatsoever that Rooney has what it takes to succeed as a championship manager imo.
Hope I'm very wrong btw
Ex footballers and team mates like Liam Rosenior, Michael Carrick, Lee Carsley, Sir Alex Ferguson and Rob Lee for starters. I would class them as genuinely in the know rather than some fat old knacker that’s never played or coached professionally but has a log in for a message board (that’s a generalisation, not a personal attack. You may be a skinny old knacker).
Then there’s a couple of the current squad who see it first hand and understand the difference between Rooney and his predecessor and have said it’s better suited to what they were brought up to do instead of learning to play on the deck and retain possession in the youth set up only to be told that’s not how they should play once they graduated to the 1st team.
Then there’s the “chosen few” who witnessed Rooney’s talk at the open house and understood and were enthused by his presentation.
That it hasn’t translated to results on the field yet doesn’t mean they’re all wrong, it means the squad aren’t adapting to the changes well enough - some because they can’t and some because their team mates can’t.
I know from personal experience that if a member or members of the team aren’t doing their job properly it directly affects your own performance because instead of concentrating on your own game you’ve constantly got to worry about whether they’re going to eff things up.
I’m confident that those that can’t cut it will be moved on and replaced by others who can, albeit a slow process due to FFP. That includes Rooney.
QBBC2Rooney’s inherited a squad of crocks, misfits and journeymen
Who were winning games and looking set for a decent season.
The revision of people's opinions of the playing squad in order to defend world class wayne is genuinely hilarious.
No more or less hilarious than the revisionism of the Anti-Rooney types who’ve elevated JE to a level he’d only briefly touched, insisting that he would’ve kept us in 6th. He got booted because he was too negative in his approach and he didn’t throw the shackles off until he knew he was going. If he’d stayed it would have been another season of the same slow and steady style most fans were berating him for up until the Huddersfield and Albion games. Cherry picking a couple of good performances over the evidence of the rest of his time in charge is revisionism.
I’m all for high press, passing football, but we only have a handful of players capable of this style. Most of our players are not comfortable on the ball and unable to keep or find the right pass on a consistent basis.
It will optimistically take at least two transfer windows to get the right players in, but in the meantime I don’t think Rooney has the pedigree or ability to get the best out the current players.
Of course, but one of the differences between the Rooney run of matches and the JE era was that under JE there are good performances to cherry pick...
Under our Wayne, of course, we did have an okay half against the world beaters that are Sheffield Wednesday...
Eustace wasn’t the right man to deliver the new owners ambitions. Problem is Rooney was the wrong replacement.
QBBC2QBBC2Rooney’s inherited a squad of crocks, misfits and journeymen
Who were winning games and looking set for a decent season.
The revision of people's opinions of the playing squad in order to defend world class wayne is genuinely hilarious.
No more or less hilarious than the revisionism of the Anti-Rooney types who’ve elevated JE to a level he’d only briefly touched, insisting that he would’ve kept us in 6th. He got booted because he was too negative in his approach and he didn’t throw the shackles off until he knew he was going. If he’d stayed it would have been another season of the same slow and steady style most fans were berating him for up until the Huddersfield and Albion games. Cherry picking a couple of good performances over the evidence of the rest of his time in charge is revisionism.
Not many sensible fans have insisted that JE would have kept us in 6th or get us up?
In fact, Most were happy to 'steady the ship' (after the chinese ownership) and hopefully a top 10 finish.
I think we have now sadly missed out on a decent season , without necessarily getting to playoffs
QBBC2QBBC2Rooney’s inherited a squad of crocks, misfits and journeymen
Who were winning games and looking set for a decent season.
The revision of people's opinions of the playing squad in order to defend world class wayne is genuinely hilarious.
No more or less hilarious than the revisionism of the Anti-Rooney types who’ve elevated JE to a level he’d only briefly touched, insisting that he would’ve kept us in 6th. He got booted because he was too negative in his approach and he didn’t throw the shackles off until he knew he was going. If he’d stayed it would have been another season of the same slow and steady style most fans were berating him for up until the Huddersfield and Albion games. Cherry picking a couple of good performances over the evidence of the rest of his time in charge is revisionism.
Trouble is, too many people are going to extremes of the argument to try and make a point. I was seeing an improvement this season with the best squad (IMO) that we've had for ten years. I don't know whether the shackles were thrown off because he was going (I'm not privy to that information) but I though, overall, the improvement was tangible and I was quite enjoying watching most games. However, the season was only 11 games old, and if anyone was insisting that he would have kept us in 6th place, well - that was daft.
You're absolutely right that a few people were demanding, before the Huddersfield and WBA games, that he be sacked. I was OK either way at the time, edging towards being in favour of him staying, but suggesting that the next two games would be vital for him. However, overall, after those eleven games, I was quite pleased with what the team and the club seemed to be achieving. I thought that it was a quiet evolution with a squad that was partly new, and it was OK.
There's no denying that Rooney has started off badly, and there's a lot of concern about this, especially as he didn't exactly ride in on a wave of goodwill. I'm pretty sure that he's more capable than results have suggested so far, but he might be facing an uphill battle to win the fanbase over.
I don't really see how one can be pro-Blues and anti-Rooney though. If Rooney does well, Blues do well, and that's as simple as that for me. Is he 'the one'? I don't know. I don't THINK so - do I hope he is? Yes, I do.