RagsAt present it it would be very hard to mount a compelling argument to keep him based on our football in his first nine games. The opposite is nearer the truth and they’re plenty making it and more joining them as games pass. Rooney was not employed for his record as a manager as I see it. His record was in the main poor. He was employed because those that own the club believed he has potential. He clearly is very knowledgeable about the game as evidenced by those fans who heard him speak at the Open House. For the record I was not one of those but trust the opinions of those that were. I suspect those who appointed him are quietly reflecting on whether they have made a mistake despite what they may say in public.
I would not, despite my concerns with current form and performances, sack him. I think nine games is to short a period of time and he deserves at least one window to bring in a few players to improve us. There are significant weaknesses in the squad particularly in central midfield where Bielik has been poor all season and up front where we are crying out for a striker. I think we actually need two central midfielders in reality and a striker in January. I want Rooney to succeed. I think some of the abuse he got by some Blues fans was uncalled for. He is actually trying to improve us albeit that is not working out too well to date. He is intentionally making us as bad as we are. He may be responding to the expectations of the owners in trying to imply a no fear, front foot, high press, possession based football too quickly where a more experienced manager might have told the owners that would need to wait until the summer to introduce. I also don’t want to have pay off another manager and his back room staff unless or until they have had a fair chance to prove themselves. I don’t think we will need to tell the owners that it is not working out if it comes to that. I know for many we have reached that point already but Tom Wagner is no fool and won’t hesitate to take action when it is required. I, for better or worse trust the new owners and don’t think fans losing their temper with them at games will motivate them greatly.
You make some good points, but the fact remains that given the exact same tools JE has proven he can create a more successful, cohesive, competitive football team than Rooney can.
So why are we persevering with Rooney if he is actually worse than JE ? Surely we need to get rid and try and attract someone else, someone with a track record of improving teams and getting the best out of players.
Maybe Rooney should now be given a further few games to see if he can implement JE's strategy.
The benefit being, Rooney brings in more money to the club and can attract better players than JE ever could.
That could be the reset, we get on an even keel and then restart the transition to more progressive football.
I am minded to give Rooney a few more games to see if he can now implement that - though if he is given any budget then it has to be players that can operate in a number of styles. We cannot afford to waste money on players that could be jettisoned if the Rooney experiment is cut short.
.... "and can attract better players than JE ever could." ... we've not seen proof of that yet.
He can bring in more money, more attention, more "clicks" .. yes, i don't dispute that ... but can he actually attract better players when we are dropping towards League 1 like a stone ?
Besides ... a decent player may look at things and think "well, he may be Rooney but if i go there he's going to criticise me in public and tell me the Press i'm a coward who needs to grow some balls. ... and it doesn't sound like a happy group/dressing room that i'm walking in to"
RagsI said back as it was a binary question. I didn’t particularly think we needed a new manager at the point we did, and if we did Rooney looked on paper a poor appointment. So it’s proving as the games go by, but 9 games is still not very many. So I still say give it time. But as I said on the other thread, there’s no way he can survive another, say, 5 games like this. By then the crowd will have decisively turned and it would feel reasonable to conclude it’s just not working and there’s a big risk we’re slipping towards relegation.
Big question is whether to ‘back’ him in this coming window. I don’t think it would be unreasonable for Knighthead to exercise a bit of caution and tell him to prove he can do it with what he’s got plus a few low budget additions (it’s not like there’ll be lots to spend anyway).
You're right to say that nine games isn't many but across those nine games we are getting progressively worse. Even if results weren't getting better one would have hoped that by now we had developed a new style and were working towards playing that way with performances improving and fans being able to say "he'll get there, i can see how were developing". But it's not, and we're not.
There were, from the very start, a lot of people who didn't think JE should be sacked
.... but there were a VERY lot of people saying "okay, you want to sack JE, that's your right - but appointing Rooney will be a disaster"
Yes, I don't disagree - I would fall into both of those categories I reckon (I was more 'I'm worried it will be a disaster' rather than outright certainty it would be). My point is really just, for me at least, we're still just about in the phase of 'he's here now so he has to be given time'. I reckon it won't be that much more time, either for enough fans to make it intolerable or for Wagner/Cook - unless we improbably string together a good run of course.
I think for me the worrying thing was Rooney's reaction after the Coventry game, it seems like he doesn't know what to do, he has tried different things and they haven't worked, and maybe that is part of the problem, too many changes.
I'm actually undecided on what the club should do at this stage, maybe bringing in a more experienced coach to help out, as someone else said he and his coaching staff are relatively inexperienced, especially at this level, so maybe appoint someone Rooney can trust and get ideas from, maybe a DoF, I don't know, but maybe that is what the owners might do as you would effectively have a replacement already here if Rooney continues to struggle.
I don't know what the answer is but something has to change sharpish.
Main reason - for the headlines when we play Leicester - El Grassico
NeilMI think for me the worrying thing was Rooney's reaction after the Coventry game, it seems like he doesn't know what to do, he has tried different things and they haven't worked, and maybe that is part of the problem, too many changes.
I'm actually undecided on what the club should do at this stage, maybe bringing in a more experienced coach to help out, as someone else said he and his coaching staff are relatively inexperienced, especially at this level, so maybe appoint someone Rooney can trust and get ideas from, maybe a DoF, I don't know, but maybe that is what the owners might do as you would effectively have a replacement already here if Rooney continues to struggle.
I don't know what the answer is but something has to change sharpish.
We'll have more coaches than players on the bench soon
So, if you want to keep Rooney……
What is it about his Managerial CV or his 27 (and falling) win percentage that makes you feel that.
He might talk a good game, or repeat parrot fashion what Cook wants him to say, but as a Manager has achieved NOTHING.
Please give me some sort of hope that he will, despite never having done it before, be successful, and on what basis.
He’s never recruited a successful team nor has he managed one. What am l missing here, the Emperor has no clothes on.
johnthefenceSo, if you want to keep Rooney……
What is it about his Managerial CV or his 27 (and falling) win percentage that makes you feel that.
He might talk a good game, or repeat parrot fashion what Cook wants him to say, but as a Manager has achieved NOTHING.
Please give me some sort of hope that he will, despite never having done it before, be successful, and on what basis.
He’s never recruited a successful team nor has he managed one. What am l missing here, the Emperor has no clothes on.
Well, not really me John, the question was directed at the folks that are saying 'back Rooney' - of course, the thread has changed along the way as it's the SHA way. 😄
I was interested to see if those backing him could genuinely see a good manager in there, or whether their support was down to backing the owners with their decision, whether it was because 9 games is too soon, or a combination of those.
Yeah, l was just repeating your question to the “backers”
As far as l can see it Rooney had wrecked any semblance of team spirit, turned a remarkably mean defence into a leaking sieve and modest but relatively effective strike force into an impotent joke.
He bombed out Long, who was our best defender, and Sunjic who is our best presser and ball winner, all in the name of “no fear football”
The irony is we now play with fear, have creative players who have regressed, and a defence that’s reminiscent of rabbits in headlights.
It’s becoming a sick joke imo. I’ll be at Cardiff though, but without an ounce of confidence, just like his team.
The whole thing seems to have moved in bizarre fast-forward, whereby things you would normally associate with a failing management - bizarre team selections, poor performances, eccentric or odd media comments, rumours of 'lost' dressing rooms etc - after, perhaps, a year, 18 months, 2 years etc, seem to have occurred with us pretty much from get-go?
I'm firmly-ish in the 'he needs more time' camp....but this is more based on faith - Rags word again! - than anything I've actually seen in terms of progression. I can't understand why the Ipswich performance or the decent spells at Blackburn and Sunlun have been so absent everywhere else? Also why, for instance, QPR's players seem to have adopted their new manager's approach in a matter of weeks and gained points aplenty, whereas nearly three months in we appear further away than ever from even resembling a half-decent team?
Ah, OK, thanks John. There aren’t many ‘backers’ on this thread really, but from what I can gather, only a few are expressing the view that he will have the ability to do well at Blues, though I absolutely respect their opinion on that, even if I don’t necessarily share it. More seem to think that it’s because 9 games isn’t enough and I get that.
Certainly convention suggests that it isn’t enough and with our managerial merry go round over the past 12 years, you’d hope for stability. It’s also an awkward time of the season to be thinking these thoughts - there’s over half of the season left and a transfer window looming. If they were going to ‘stick’, you would think that they’d see a window through and give it another 6 weeks after that, or if they were going to ‘twist’, it would be before that. I would be surprised if they were to sack him before the window as it would be a massive admission of a huge error.
In Rooney’s case, I wonder if he’ll ever make it here, as the negativity that he came into and the circumstances surrounding his arrival was a perfect storm. I’ve said ad nauseam that ‘goodwill’ has a big part to play to see a manager or an owner over any rough spots and whereas Knighthead deservedly has that goodwill, Rooney started off with anything but that, and I do feel sorry for him in that respect. That lack of goodwill, though, may be the catalyst for any decision rather than results.
The whole thing seems to have moved in bizarre fast-forward, whereby things you would normally associate with a failing management - bizarre team selections, poor performances, eccentric or odd media comments, rumours of 'lost' dressing rooms etc - after, perhaps, a year, 18 months, 2 years etc, seem to have occurred with us pretty much from get-go?
I'm firmly-ish in the 'he needs more time' camp....but this is more based on faith - Rags word again! - than anything I've actually seen in terms of progression. I can't understand why the Ipswich performance or the decent spells at Blackburn and Sunlun have been so absent everywhere else? Also why, for instance, QPR's players seem to have adopted their new manager's approach in a matter of weeks and gained points aplenty, whereas nearly three months in we appear further away than ever from even resembling a half-decent team?
Yes .. i explained this at the time of my "faith" post.
I have no problem with anyone who backs Rooney based on hope or faith. Like them i desperately want Rooney to do well - because if Rooney does well then Blues are doing well.
The people i find ridiculous are those who try and give evidential reasons, which don't stand up to analysis, for keeping him - or decide to blame it all on the players - or even worse, try and deflect the blame on to other Blues fans who dare to question Rooney's managerial ability - or those who equate criticising Rooney with not supporting the owners - or those who can't think of anything positive to say about Rooney so just slag off JE instead.
Admitting that he should be kept based on nothing but faith and hope is the honest answer.
PS ... i will admit that his appointment leads to greater media coverage, more clicks, more non-Blues followers and more chance of new sponsors and revenue ..... but i refuse to believe that those sponsors see the positives of Rooney being manager as greater than being associated with a losing failing team
Robert HopkinsI cannot beleive in the recent review that Wagner will have had with Cook that his performance wasn't debated.
I am sure it will be, we only need to look at the rational for sacking the previous manager...
"It is essential that the Board of Directors and the football management are fully aligned on the importance of implementing a winning mentality and a culture of ambition across the entire Football Club."
"A new First Team Manager will be announced in the coming days who will be responsible for creating an identity and clear ‘no fear’ playing style that all Birmingham City teams will adopt and embrace."
Has Rooney fulfilled the above remit? No
For me the previous guy was realistic in his approach and would have been in his words.
The Championship can be a slog, changing thing over night was a huge error.
We are no doubt sleep walking into League 1 unless Rooney is axed.
Robert HopkinsI cannot beleive in the recent review that Wagner will have had with Cook that his performance wasn't debated.
I am sure it will be, we only need to look at the rational for sacking the previous manager...
"It is essential that the Board of Directors and the football management are fully aligned on the importance of implementing a winning mentality and a culture of ambition across the entire Football Club."
"A new First Team Manager will be announced in the coming days who will be responsible for creating an identity and clear ‘no fear’ playing style that all Birmingham City teams will adopt and embrace."
Has Rooney fulfilled the above remit? No
For me the previous guy was realistic in his approach and would have been in his words.
The Championship can be a slog, changing thing over night was a huge error.
We are no doubt sleep walking into League 1 unless Rooney is axed.
What irks me somewhat is that JE was a massive fan of progressive possession based football ... Kidderminster were know as the non-League Barcelona.
So i don't believe that it was merely a case of not sharing the vision - but more a case of being realistic about the time needed.
Cook said at the Openhouse that the owners (in all aspects) were putting pressure on everyone at the club and they didn't just "want" things - but want things immediately.