11:10, Wed 17 Nov
Frank
Yeah the bar definitely makes the money

For me, i think you want sports clubs of any description to cater for and make everyone want to come along. Most are still too focussed on male adult sport.

If you want women to go and play, you need to have changing rooms available, which is not always an easy fix.
Catering needs to be moved further away from mainly beer, bacon sandwiches and hot dogs. Etc, etc.
You want it to be an environment where your kids and all their friends can feel welcome.

That's going to take leadership and resource from the Governing body, because most of these places are run by older volunteers who will do what they have always done to keep their club going.

I can't think of any sport that can honestly put their hands up and say this is a game for everyone, and everyone's team and participation gets equal billing. Don't even start me on going down the Blues.

I can, Hockey. It helps that most clubs have men’s, ladies and mixed teams. I think mixed teams bind members and create inclusivity. Also I think our national teams get equal billing at Olympics etc.
11:39, Wed 17 Nov
Well said - my thoughts exactly.

Unfortunately one of the things that allows discrimination to still fester in our society is the deniers & the victim blamers.

A sadly typical ‘response from the ‘I’m not a racist but………..’ brigade who allow such behaviour to continue.

The Daily Mail comments section on all of this (and here are a LOT of comments) is firmly split between two different views ...

a) "if he didn't like it he could have left at any time"
b) "if any of this was true then why did he go back there ?"
11:41, Wed 17 Nov
I've seen plenty of comments on the mail saying they can't see any difference between calling him a racist term, and calling someone a Brit/Yank/Aussie/Saffer etc.
mad
12:19, Wed 17 Nov
Bresnan has 1 year left at Warwicks and took some persuading from Farbrace not to go in September.

Based on his chat on that Aussie podcast the other week I think he'd mainly be a white ball specialist next season and fill in as and when elsewhere a bit like he did this season but in the podcast it looked like he really gave it some thought whether to carry on or not

Could be a convenient parting of the ways I suspect

Interesting tidbit. The White Rose county have never won a white ball trophy as last time they won a limited overs comp they still used a red ball the C&G Trophy in 2002
12:27, Wed 17 Nov
Rasputin
I've seen plenty of comments on the mail saying they can't see any difference between calling him a racist term, and calling someone a Brit/Yank/Aussie/Saffer etc.

I find that bizarre - are people really that obtuse? I know some are saying it as they know full well it's racist and they think this sort of argument gives them a free pass, and others are genuinely just ignorant (the 'P--- shop' for example generally isn't meant in an offensive way). But come on - it's like saying the n word isn't offensive as it's just an adaption of the Latin for black, or indeed the K word (not Kevin...) comes from Arabic and means non-believer, or even that the C word isn't offensive on the grounds that no-one could possibly be offended by being compared to a simple body part.

I suppose it's one thing to be saying 'I genuinely didn't know' in which case well done for belatedly finding out (but where have you been since the early 1970s), but another to be nit-picking over whether or not it is a racial slur.
I’ve not read through the entire thread but it annoys me when the apologies are caveated with ‘if I caused any offence etc’. It ranks up there with ‘some of my best friends are Pakistani.’ They can all get fcuked. If this was happening in the nineties it would be bad enough. The fact that it’s happened in the last 10 or so years is completely unforgivable.
The Devlin Disguise
Rasputin
I've seen plenty of comments on the mail saying they can't see any difference between calling him a racist term, and calling someone a Brit/Yank/Aussie/Saffer etc.

I find that bizarre - are people really that obtuse? I know some are saying it as they know full well it's racist and they think this sort of argument gives them a free pass, and others are genuinely just ignorant (the 'P--- shop' for example generally isn't meant in an offensive way). But come on - it's like saying the n word isn't offensive as it's just an adaption of the Latin for black, or indeed the K word (not Kevin...) comes from Arabic and means non-believer, or even that the C word isn't offensive on the grounds that no-one could possibly be offended by being compared to a simple body part.

I suppose it's one thing to be saying 'I genuinely didn't know' in which case well done for belatedly finding out (but where have you been since the early 1970s), but another to be nit-picking over whether or not it is a racial slur.

For the love of God, how can it possibly be intended in an inoffensive way? Ridiculous.
15:47, Wed 17 Nov
Holdsworth_MaraSonner
The Devlin Disguise
Rasputin
I've seen plenty of comments on the mail saying they can't see any difference between calling him a racist term, and calling someone a Brit/Yank/Aussie/Saffer etc.

I find that bizarre - are people really that obtuse? I know some are saying it as they know full well it's racist and they think this sort of argument gives them a free pass, and others are genuinely just ignorant (the 'P--- shop' for example generally isn't meant in an offensive way). But come on - it's like saying the n word isn't offensive as it's just an adaption of the Latin for black, or indeed the K word (not Kevin...) comes from Arabic and means non-believer, or even that the C word isn't offensive on the grounds that no-one could possibly be offended by being compared to a simple body part.

I suppose it's one thing to be saying 'I genuinely didn't know' in which case well done for belatedly finding out (but where have you been since the early 1970s), but another to be nit-picking over whether or not it is a racial slur.

For the love of God, how can it possibly be intended in an inoffensive way? Ridiculous.

The Devlin Disguise, is, like me, one of the good guys.

I know what he means.

My old mum used to use the word 'Jew' when referring to anyone who was tight with money. She wasn't in any way anti-semitic, and would have been mortified if she thought it was offensive to someone....but she used it nonetheless.

It was of it's time and used casually without thought.

Thankfully those days have long gone.
There's too much opinion and not enough fact.
mad
15:52, Wed 17 Nov
[podcasts.apple.com]

Very comprehensive discussion at Wisden

Interesting on 45 mins Phil Walker talks about his club in the 1990's where an ex-county cricketer gave a Bernard Manning type talk in an end of season do for his cricket club of 1s 2s 3s 4s which only had 1 British Asian player in the club.

He goes onto describe how that club has changed rather like how I sense Moseley CC and countless other clubs changed became more integrated over this period. Is this further along down South and in Midlands than say in Yorkshire?
17:07, Wed 17 Nov
Holdsworth_MaraSonner
The Devlin Disguise
Rasputin
I've seen plenty of comments on the mail saying they can't see any difference between calling him a racist term, and calling someone a Brit/Yank/Aussie/Saffer etc.

I find that bizarre - are people really that obtuse? I know some are saying it as they know full well it's racist and they think this sort of argument gives them a free pass, and others are genuinely just ignorant (the 'P--- shop' for example generally isn't meant in an offensive way). But come on - it's like saying the n word isn't offensive as it's just an adaption of the Latin for black, or indeed the K word (not Kevin...) comes from Arabic and means non-believer, or even that the C word isn't offensive on the grounds that no-one could possibly be offended by being compared to a simple body part.

I suppose it's one thing to be saying 'I genuinely didn't know' in which case well done for belatedly finding out (but where have you been since the early 1970s), but another to be nit-picking over whether or not it is a racial slur.

For the love of God, how can it possibly be intended in an inoffensive way? Ridiculous.

The Devlin Disguise, is, like me, one of the good guys.

I know what he means.

My old mum used to use the word 'Jew' when referring to anyone who was tight with money. She wasn't in any way anti-semitic, and would have been mortified if she thought it was offensive to someone....but she used it nonetheless.

It was of it's time and used casually without thought.

Thankfully those days have long gone.

I think most people who used or still use the term **** shop did so because they thought it was funny, and most of em thought it was funny because they knew it was offensive. Some people like to be offensive because it amuses them.

I knew a load of blokes who would talk all friendly to Dilip Doshi in the members bar at Warwick. One would keep calling him Phillip. When he said my name is not Phillip, it’s Dilip, the response was OK Phillip, I’ll bear it in mind, and the gang would crack up, thinking themselves very clever and hilarious. Next game another of them would have a go. And all of them, would routinely say, alright Phillip if he was about, and, every single time, they considered it to be hilarious, because it was offensive, naughty, edgy.

And thats how it has always been, with Jew, Gypo, Stan, **** shop, chinese, tight Scot, thick Paddy and on and on. Elderly relatives using it doesn’t wash as an excuse. Better to say eff me I’m sorry and I have learned and my relatives should have known better than excuse it.
mad
17:25, Wed 17 Nov
Literally anybody anywhere not just Yorkshire, can be racist, and they frequently are. Often through ignorance and without intent, or because they've been told its acceptable in certain circles so its just part of their culture . British society is based upon notions of racial superiority from the days of the empire. It's in the make up of our society. Many white people still alive to this day have been brought up with an outlook that reflects that, however benign. That's the whole point of recognising institutional racism - it's not about people's intent or outlook. The instiutions themselves encourage it.

Yet people see it as this thing that is a horrifying moral failing that only terrible people are capable of

Inside that Yorkshire dressing room was clearly a toxic mix of this, tradition, outdated values, and bullying flushed through a prism of decades of decline and bitterness towards other counties catching up with them and overtaking them by thinking outside the box quite literally
17:28, Wed 17 Nov
mad
mad
Literally anybody anywhere not just Yorkshire, can be racist, and they frequently are. Often through ignorance and without intent, or because they've been told its acceptable in certain circles so its just part of their culture . British society is based upon notions of racial superiority from the days of the empire. It's in the make up of our society. Many white people still alive to this day have been brought up with an outlook that reflects that, however benign. That's the whole point of recognising institutional racism - it's not about people's intent or outlook. The instiutions themselves encourage it.

Yet people see it as this thing that is a horrifying moral failing that only terrible people are capable of

Inside that Yorkshire dressing room was clearly a toxic mix of this, tradition, outdated values, and bullying
I agree with that. That’s why I’m a bit confused by you constantly saying Warwick or Moseley even won’t be guilty of it
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”
17:59, Wed 17 Nov
Radavis
LondonBlue
Yes. It's not a contest of whose mental health was worse. It was bad for both of them. If Rafiq is lying about Ballance's considering he went through it himself, then that's not a great look. HTH.

No, not HTH, it’s not a great look on this thread when someone’s first concern is Gary Ballences mental well being. In fact it’s very odd.

Edit. I will also add, from someone so openly opposed to BLM and taking the knee, it’s very concerning this is your take on the matter.

It's not "concerning" at all. There's lots of reasons why people, including people of colour, are opposed to the BLM and taking the knee movements.

Regardless, as I said, one man's mental health isn't more important than the other. Unless Rafiq can prove that Ballance was lying about his, that could potentially be quite damaging.
Dong Ren Out.
18:03, Wed 17 Nov
I don't think anyone is excusing it.

It's awful, lazy, offensive and ignorant.

We're just trying to work out how someone gets to be an adult and still think it's ok to say it.
There's too much opinion and not enough fact.