HackneyBlue
Yea, both Vaughan and Ballance have written in sympathetic papers defending themselves and in Vaughan's case outright denial.

Hoggard has admitted his mistakes and apologised directly to Rafiq without feeling the need to write a column in a newspaper about it, fair play to him.

With respect, strange logic. I’d focus on the initial action and how egregious it is, rather than the relative merit of the apology versus others.
15:11, Tue 16 Nov
Holdsworth_MaraSonner
IanT
It might well be that Hoggard didn't really understand the word either. He's not the brightest, and no doubt got caught up in the 'lad' culture that was prevalent back in those days.

As you say, at least he had the decency to pro-actively contact him and apologise. That in itself tells you something about Hoggard.

Awful though.

Oh come on mate. You’re one of the good guys. Are we really going to write this off as lad culture?

[twitter.com]

No, but Hoggard is a product of his environment. Just as we all are.

Don't get me wrong, it's shitty racist behaviour, but we're in danger here of rounding on the players because of their fame, rather than those who fostered the culture and allowed the poison to go unchecked.
There's too much opinion and not enough fact.
15:14, Tue 16 Nov
I’m not making a relative argument. I’m making an argument about absolutes. Matthew Hoggard is 44 years old. We’re not talking about somebody’s 90 year old Grandad that grew up with different norms.
15:14, Tue 16 Nov
David Lloyd?
Holdsworth_MaraSonner
HackneyBlue
Yea, both Vaughan and Ballance have written in sympathetic papers defending themselves and in Vaughan's case outright denial.

Hoggard has admitted his mistakes and apologised directly to Rafiq without feeling the need to write a column in a newspaper about it, fair play to him.

With respect, strange logic. I’d focus on the initial action and how egregious it is, rather than the relative merit of the apology versus others.

Fair enough, I didn't mean to take anything away from the severity of the initial actions, just comparing the consequent actions of the accused.
15:19, Tue 16 Nov
IanT
Not as hollow as a denial that he said anything.

If we're going to move forward, at all, firstly it takes those that have done wrong to accept it.
Who knows if he’s accepted it?
I don’t. From what I’ve read he’s a bully. Bullies don’t like being challenged all too often. I certainly don’t know if he is genuinely apologising.
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”
15:20, Tue 16 Nov
It sounded genuine when Rafiq described it this morning.
15:21, Tue 16 Nov
He grew up in the 90s, when that sort of 'laddish' 'banter' was all over the place.

It's disgusting, don't get me wrong....and I'm not defending him at all.

Even now we have posters on this very board that we both know personally who, as adults, joke about rape, cripples and slags and constantly take the piss out of others who are known to be vulnerable.

Just as disgusting imo.
There's too much opinion and not enough fact.
mad
15:21, Tue 16 Nov
The ECB rightly hammered earlier I can't see Tom Harrison lasting long in that role he just seems a yes man for the broadcasters and county chairs and far too cosy with Yorkshire with his relationship with Colin Graves

Azeem also pointed to the lack of help from his union the PCA - seems to be severely lacking in its role 35 all white full time employees. His personal development manager was former Tykes player Matthew Wood

I see Wasim Khan (former PCA, former Leicestershire chief) now and again at local cricket and he's a lovely fella but he appears to have let Azeem and others down badly that it has got to this stage although it is clearly tricky as they have to have the welfare of all their members interests in mind
Holdsworth_MaraSonner
I’m not making a relative argument. I’m making an argument about absolutes. Matthew Hoggard is 44 years old. We’re not talking about somebody’s 90 year old Grandad that grew up with different norms.
Absolutely mate. We’re similar ages to him. He would certainly have known how wrong his behaviour was, every time he did it
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”
IanT
It might well be that Hoggard didn't really understand the word either. He's not the brightest, and no doubt got caught up in the 'lad' culture that was prevalent back in those days.

As you say, at least he had the decency to pro-actively contact him and apologise. That in itself tells you something about Hoggard.

Awful though.

Oh come on mate. You’re one of the good guys. Are we really going to write this off as lad culture?

[twitter.com]

Weren't they both at it (Azeem as well)? that's what I heard Ballance say, that they were good mates who routinely had that sort of 'bantz'. Not that it makes it right and racism is clearly a huge issue in cricket.
mad
15:30, Tue 16 Nov
HackneyBlue
Spike
Hoggard apparently rang him after it all blew up - said he had no idea what had gone on and apologised for not being able to help.

He apologised, but he definitely did know what was going on.

[twitter.com]

Rafiq's witness statement (just released) confirms Hoggard threw the "elephant washers" comment about amongst other things

Some ridiculous questions from Steve Brine MP
For instance he asked if Yorkshire could be "considered unlucky to be caught up in the storm" ffs
"By how many will we win the Ashes?"

...but at least when he asked about other counties Azeem didn't mention Warwicks. He did earlier mention Birmingham having 50% of academy sides filled by Asian players now (which is a good thing) and that this wasn't translating into first team numbers was a problem and he's right about that disconnect - race/class issue at play in this area I wouldn't have thought Warwicks dressing rooms wouldn't tolerate the extent of racism at Headingley although there might be a blind spot
15:34, Tue 16 Nov
I’m being very open here but until I was 15/16 I didn’t understand the word kaffir

I had only really heard watching lethal weapon. I had heard lots of people at school do a impression of the guy. Including in front of various ethnicities. We all thought it was funny. (Including those that weren’t white)

Once I realised it was awful I ensured I never got involved again. I didn’t tell the others to stop which is a failure.

I’m very fortunate to be very good friends with a good mix of people who have helped open my eyes to a lot of subtle racism. Especially being turned away from clubs etc for no reason.
15:36, Tue 16 Nov
There are different patterns with different communities, I guess.

This kind of behaviour with the young, educated people that I know is deemed totalky unacceptable. This is progress and a sign of change.

On the other hand, what Farage and Johnson et al.have done has given a lot of confidence to less enlightened people who enjoy racism as a way of feeling, collectively, better or even patriotic. This is reaction and dangerous. It is the popular way of bringing ignorant people together the world over.

This brave testimony today seems to locate cricket culture in this latter light. It also confirms exactly how institutional racism functions.
15:38, Tue 16 Nov
I think that point of having a mixture of friends from different backgrounds and cultures is very important in finding out things and what to look for that you wouldn’t see within a group of white British mates most of the time.
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”