mad
09:29, Fri 19 Nov
If Vaughan came out and apologized now would this story dissipate?

Hales blackface at a fancy dress do of 2009 looks terrible now but consider Baddiel did a mocking of Jason Lee a decade earlier and the stuff Prince Harry got up to - you're getting into the minutiae - is it necessary for all of that stuff to come out? Also given this sort of more minor historic stuff is coming out already does that suggest they don't yet have all that much dirt on all that many players of relevance to today's game and maybe this blows over relatively quickly? - from national news/scandal perspective anyway not necessarily from cricket governance perspective
09:35, Fri 19 Nov
No, there isn't a pecking order. Racism is racism and no one is denying this.

But how you respond can be different.

Racism doesn't happen in a vacuum, if you try to treat it in a literal or abstract way you can find yourself on the wrong side (presuming you are not a racist). You do have to take into account the different between the powerful and the powerless and the oppressed from the oppressor.
09:42, Fri 19 Nov
mad
mad
If Vaughan came out and apologized now would this story dissipate?

Probably not in Vaughan's case. He went big on categorically denying he made the comments. Had he dealt with it differently in the first place - rather than lawyering up and denying, it would maybe have gone better. Who can say?

If you make a good career out of dicking people and bigging yourself up like Vaughan has since he retired from playing, you'd better be confident in your own perfection and blamelessness otherwise you can probably expect your arse bitten at some point and sympathy will be short.
10:01, Fri 19 Nov
Blues are ya.

Native Americans and settlers had pejorative and racist terms for each other. Would you have said, a curse on both your houses?
mad
10:27, Fri 19 Nov
What is depressingly predicatible from the reactions last night and this morning & also rather proves a point is this - if you come for an English institution as an 'outsider' (non-whites can't 'really' be English after all, still, apparently...) you'd better be purer than pure or they will do whatever it takes to dig up dirt to neutralise you. Look at the way Farage gets involved last night "to save the cricket establishment from the woke mob" presumably. Vaughan will no doubt retweet his nonsense

As well as this, the fact discrimination might occur in other parts of the world does not preclude criticism of the UK/England establishment from codifying it, promoting it to at least a 1/3 of the known world and continuing to seed it right here today
10:28, Fri 19 Nov
fradge
Blue are ya?
Micky Darrell
Wyndcliff
Micky Darrell
It seems Rafiq used that trope about Jews money and being mean.

It's not true and it is racist.

I believe he is honestly contrite and Jewish community leaders have accepted that.

Rafiq was never in a position to affect Jews in any way and doesn't really compare to the racism he has suffered.

So my racism is not as bad as your racism (for example)? Racism is racism. Or does it depend on who is the perpetrator and who is the victim?

Yes it does. It's vital to understand this if you're serious about fighting racism.

Are you suggesting that there is a pecking order when it comes to racism?
If so would you care to enlighten us all as to who is at the top of this order i.e. who it's "OK" to be racist to and who is at the bottom.

Do you understand that there is a difference between a black person (who belongs to a community that has been discriminated against for a long time) calling me a 'h****' and me (who belongs to the community that has discriminated against his community) the 'n' word?

In this scenario how does the black person know that you belong to a "community" who has discriminated against his "community". I guess you are white European (in appearance). You could be Jewish (another community that has been discriminated aginst), you could be Irish, who have been used as slaves by North Africans, you could be Polish or from the Baltic states etc etc
Racism is racism.
My belief is there is no excuse for racism, you seem to suggest otherwise
10:28, Fri 19 Nov
mad
If Vaughan came out and apologized now would this story dissipate?

Hales blackface at a fancy dress do of 2009 looks terrible now but consider Baddiel did a mocking of Jason Lee a decade earlier and the stuff Prince Harry got up to - you're getting into the minutiae - is it necessary for all of that stuff to come out? Also given this sort of more minor historic stuff is coming out already does that suggest they don't yet have all that much dirt on all that many players of relevance to today's game and maybe this blows over relatively quickly? - from national news/scandal perspective anyway not necessarily from cricket governance perspective

I doubt it, there are examples of Vaughan's tweets which, while not overtly racist, really are racist.

I cant get too upset about Hales, albeit he seems to be a wrong un in all sorts of ways.....it's noticeable Morgan doesn't want him anywhere near his teams. Baddiel put blackface on to mock a specific individual, yet here we have Keir Starmer basing Labour policy on his book. If some dope wears blackface with no idea it can be deemed offensive, I don't see we should kill 'em for that, so long as they acknowledge the error. Everything needs to be proportionate.
12:27, Fri 19 Nov
My Blue Heaven
I’d only heard that word in a film at that point and just didn’t understand why it was so bad until at 15 I studied gcse history and we covered the apartheid

I remember a distinct gasp from me and my pals when we realised the severity of it.

I was fortunate in terms of my upbringing, large diverse family with cousins of dual heritage so we heard very little

It was just the one word, I guess, in my experience, that I’d never heard bar that film that I didn’t grasp.

At the time, stupid me thought the man had a funny accent and it sounded funny when my mates did impressions. Soon learnt

I cant remember hearing that word said again, certainly from people I know. ( bar tv/film)

I only learnt it from cricket oddly and its the only place I've ever heard it. When Paul Adams bowled the rest of the team used to say 'Bowling Kaffir' after a good dot ball. My brother had to explain.
12:35, Fri 19 Nov
mad
Hales must be some piece of work to be not in the England ODI team given that he is such a good player.

Reading his apologies he says he spent his twenties letting down family,friends,team mates,partners. Pretty much everyone by the looks of it.
"supporters should be patient a little while longer - sunshine days are just around the corner."
Ken Wheldon - March 18th 1988
12:45, Fri 19 Nov
This isn’t a reply to anyone in particular – it is just a few thoughts.

I’m white and middle-aged. I’ve never been subject to racism so my perspective is going to be different from someone who has – I know it is wrong but it doesn’t affect me in the same way as it would if it was personal. I can empathise but I can never really understand. I’ve seen it happen, got involved in situations to stop it and also walked away from others, which I’m not proud of.

I can’t understand the mentality of judging someone by skin colour, religion etc and I also struggle with the argument that one type of racism/bigotry is worse than another – they shouldn’t be compared, they should be condemned. Because of this I feel slightly deflated that Azeem has this in his history but it is absolutely right for it to be highlighted. It shouldn’t detract from what happened to him as the incidents are separate, but inevitably it will.

I wanted him to be a catalyst for change (he may still be) but it isn’t his responsibility to be this anyway. What the subsequent revelations have done is provide a warped justification in some minds that because he has done it, it is ok to continue doing it. It has made him fair game in the eyes of some people, with the implication that he should expect it because of past messages that weren't even known about until yesterday.

It shouldn’t be viewed like that – if ‘everyone’ does it then ‘everyone’ needs to change. I have no idea if his apology is sincere, or those of David Lloyd, Jack Brooks, Garry Balance etc, etc but if you take one at face value then you have to take them all unless there is empirical evidence to the contrary. I take issue with those who have just passed this off as ‘banter’ though – it isn’t.

As a species we are capable of change but we are still tribal. I’m not naïve enough to believe discrimination of all types will ever be eliminated totally. The status quo as it stands isn’t acceptable but we are so far away from reaching where we should be that I doubt I will see it in my lifetime.

It is a very sad and depressing reflection on some parts of humanity.
12:50, Fri 19 Nov
FWIW, from my political blog this week (which seems to feature football and cricket with increasing regularity!)

[radicalreadblog.wordpress.com]
13:55, Fri 19 Nov
fradge
Blue are ya?
Micky Darrell
Wyndcliff
Micky Darrell
It seems Rafiq used that trope about Jews money and being mean.

It's not true and it is racist.

I believe he is honestly contrite and Jewish community leaders have accepted that.

Rafiq was never in a position to affect Jews in any way and doesn't really compare to the racism he has suffered.

So my racism is not as bad as your racism (for example)? Racism is racism. Or does it depend on who is the perpetrator and who is the victim?

Yes it does. It's vital to understand this if you're serious about fighting racism.

Are you suggesting that there is a pecking order when it comes to racism?
If so would you care to enlighten us all as to who is at the top of this order i.e. who it's "OK" to be racist to and who is at the bottom.

Do you understand that there is a difference between a black person (who belongs to a community that has been discriminated against for a long time) calling me a 'h****' and me (who belongs to the community that has discriminated against his community) the 'n' word?

Do you understand that this view is known as ‘Woke Racism?

For the record I don’t think Rafiq having racist tweets disregards the claims he made, and if the stories are true about him being held down and having red wine down his throat, that is absolutely disgusting and appalling behaviour and should be charged as a hate crime as assault IMO.

On the other hand, pointing out Rafiqs own failings isn’t just done by people looking at an excuse, I think it flags up what someone said earlier, there seems to be a pecking order for outrage on racism of which, sadly, the Jews constantly are at the bottom which is atrocious.
14:28, Fri 19 Nov
Who knows it as 'woke racism'?
14:38, Fri 19 Nov
Micky Darrell
Who knows it as 'woke racism'?

That’s a new one for me. Also a complete oxymoron by definition.
14:40, Fri 19 Nov
mad
mad
Think we got giddy and allowed ourselves to imagine that Azeem might be this saintly force that unifies the conversation but there were always going to be the reactionaries out there even before the mud slinging. People are back in their trenches now with the predictable grenades being lobbed about

His very important role isn't as some saint who would go on to win sports personality, be rewarded by our honours system or become a human rights campaigner or even a local politician in Barnsley - but as a key whistleblower. The individual acts of racism he conducted himself do matter but only on a certain level - a reminder we all need to double and triple check our own thoughts and utterances wherever we are

If there are victims of his racism that emerge as whistlebowers about his actions bullying them with his discrimination then that needs equal treatment but not his personality or private communications - although it strengthens the argument that racism was so rife within that organisation/in society that all in there/here would be subjected to it and potentially react in kind in some way

Maybe we should realise that we are all human, fallible, prone to poor judgment and most of us are lucky that there is nothing on record to prove this. Most of my major cock-ups and stupid behaviour happened before camera phones and social media, thank God.

That’s not to excuse systematic racism at all. That’s different.

And must the outcome always be damnation, cancellation, loss of job, with little short-term hope of forgiveness or redemption?