10:41, Thu 18 Nov
Spike
My Blue Heaven
the n word especially Is used too mainstream for that to happen in my opinion

I kind of understand the bare logic of that argument - if it's ok for black people to use the word ni...r why is it wrong for white people to use it in what they think is an inoffensive way?

It's similar to some Gay people referring to themselves as Qu..r...so why can't I call them that?

But the correct answer for me is just that it's not ok and I think people should understand that because it just sounds, and is, and means, different coming from a white or straight person.

There was a debate - which probably still goes on, about whether black people should stop using that word because it normalises it and makes it available. their argument is that - no, they have appropriated the word, that's their right and will use it if they want. Other black people do come down on the side of - no, don't use it - let's make the word disappear. I say it's not up to me to tell black (or in their case) Gay people how they should feel I can only apply my own standard, which is that I won't use these words because I can't hear them coming from my mouth in any situation.

As we love to learn. Is the Q word offensive to gay people? I genuinely didn’t know that but I don’t socialise with human adults anymore.
10:43, Thu 18 Nov
I heard David Sederis on the Adam Buxton podcast the other day saying similar on the idea of ‘queer writers’ - he objected to being pigeonholed and labelled. If he wants to put that label on himself then fine, but he didn’t and so others shouldn’t either.
10:47, Thu 18 Nov
The offended against sometimes will reclaim an offensive word to take the power away. Queer is an example. Until recently it would have been deemed very offensive by most gay people, now many gay people rejoice in using it. Fair enough. I wouldn't use it myself. Same I suppose with the N word, some black people use it some don't, white people should never us it. I love Curb your Enthusiasm and the black guy who live with Larry cracks me up, but every time he uses that word, my balls constrict. Tottenham fans call themselves yids but others of the Jewish faith find it offensive.

If some Pakistani cricketers call themselves by the diminutive, that doesn't really give anyone else the right to use it, especially as the term is generally understood to be offensive

Also, when I was younger man, among women I knew at the time in different work and educational environments the C bomb was very much verboten, as it still is on this very board. Now, in very similar environments, albeit among younger people, the word is common usage. Which is good news for me because it is my favourite effing word.
10:49, Thu 18 Nov
Radavis
As we love to learn. Is the Q word offensive to gay people? I genuinely didn’t know that but I don’t socialise with human adults anymore.

That word was always a very pejorative way to refer to Gay people- and to me, still is, because that was the connotation. Qu..r Bashing and all that hatred, not quite my tempo.

Some Gay people have reclaimed it - as is their right. Others still don't like it - as is their right.

I'm still not having it because it still brings back visions of groups of pissed up blokes kicking eight bells out of some poor sod for not being "manly" enough.
10:51, Thu 18 Nov
Exactly. That sums it up.
10:52, Thu 18 Nov
Spike
Radavis
As we love to learn. Is the Q word offensive to gay people? I genuinely didn’t know that but I don’t socialise with human adults anymore.

That word was always a very pejorative way to refer to Gay people- and to me, still is, because that was the connotation. Qu..r Bashing and all that hatred, not quite my tempo.

Some Gay people have reclaimed it - as is their right. Others still don't like it - as is their right.

I'm still not having it because it still brings back visions of groups of pissed up blokes kicking eight bells out of some poor sod for not being "manly" enough.

I’d say whether one has heard a word with ‘-bashing’ appended to it might be a reasonable criterion of whether people might be offended by that word, right?
10:53, Thu 18 Nov
Yes and that’s where I sit

It’s all about who’s using it
11:36, Thu 18 Nov
Exactly - if black people want to use it (and a lot don't) that's up to them, I totally understand the thought process behind it (certainly originally, now I think in the culture its just accepted by many without any thought).

Anyone else, you've got no right to say it. And please don't anyone quote back "free speech" because free speech is not an valid excuse to offend or denigrate others.
11:41, Thu 18 Nov
The Devlin Disguise
Spike
Radavis
As we love to learn. Is the Q word offensive to gay people? I genuinely didn’t know that but I don’t socialise with human adults anymore.

That word was always a very pejorative way to refer to Gay people- and to me, still is, because that was the connotation. Qu..r Bashing and all that hatred, not quite my tempo.

Some Gay people have reclaimed it - as is their right. Others still don't like it - as is their right.

I'm still not having it because it still brings back visions of groups of pissed up blokes kicking eight bells out of some poor sod for not being "manly" enough.

I’d say whether one has heard a word with ‘-bashing’ appended to it might be a reasonable criterion of whether people might be offended by that word, right?

Perhaps, I spent a lot of time growing up near Brighton and it wasn’t used in a derogatory way generally but I think that might be due to the demographic that lived there. I also thought the Q in LGBTQ was for queer, but apparently it’s for Questioning or Queer. Fortunately I don’t think I’ve ever used the term but I certainly wouldn’t have pulled anyone up for using it.

Every days a school day.
mad
12:38, Thu 18 Nov
Interesting comment in something I listened into yesterday that it isn't the P word that's necessarily in much usage amongst the more vehement racists of late but a couple of T words instead that are equally as harmful within this Generation Z society - showing how it is often fed quite deliberately by certain sections of current media

Just been reading about incidents in the 1990's I recall from reading Dermot Reeve's biography when he spoke about Ray Illingworth and his attitude and racist treatment towards Devon Malcolm. Leeds Students Union demanded he not be awarded an honorary degree in 1997 and in their student rag they vox popped a few of their students. Makes interesting reading;

[digital.library.leeds.ac.uk]

Remember all these club nights on the following pages too

Makes you wonder how toxic Illingworth's impact was at Leicestershire CCC as he was there for a while in his later playing days
mad
16:33, Thu 18 Nov
Miss World
I’m sorry to harp on about this as I know it’s not even close to the most important issue here, but I’m really struggling to understand your repeated insistence that “it wouldn’t happen at Warwickshire”. It doesn’t seem to be based on anything more than blind hope as far as I can see.

Lots of very intelligent conversation here particularly Wisden's Taha Hashim and former Leicestershire academy prospect Nikesh Rughani. Not a response to your query above but brings out how racism is so prevalent everywhere and an interesting comment that racism manifests itself as actions that occur as a result of decisions made in a setting rather than a personality trait. Sure plenty of this institutional racism, false machismo etc... will have undoubtedly have occured inside more county and club dressing rooms than not and so for me to even half expect it not to have occured inside Edgbaston is naive of me

[www.podbean.com]
Season 11, Ep 5: Few bigger weeks for the show to return: this was the week when Azeem Rafiq's testimony to a parliamentary hearing shook cricket in the UK, after years of racist conduct to players at Yorkshire were blocked, dismissed, and covered up. It was an extraordinary moment of truth. The ramifications may be felt more widely than in one country. To take us through the story we have Taha Hashim, the journalist who first interviewed Rafiq about his treatment, as well as broadcaster and former player Nikesh Rughani.
16:57, Thu 18 Nov
mad
Azeem Rafiq apologises for historical anti-Semitic messages

[www.bbc.com]
Tell you what that crack is really moreish.
16:59, Thu 18 Nov
Uh oh
mad
17:00, Thu 18 Nov
I did wonder if Ateeq Javid would get drawn in

Just not quite in this way...


I suppose at least Azeem has (like Bumble) apologised and deserves a second chance - but it does make me wonder what dirt on Azeem Yorkshire or the cricketing establishment are STILL holding back to squash all this navel gazing and get back to business as usual to save their own asses

It also reinforces racism is everywhere and is societies systemic tool to reduce all of us in some way and undermining any attempts at real progressive change

Private texts/whatsapps? How did they get hold of these so quick?
17:00, Thu 18 Nov
It appears Rafiq is guilty himself of racism. The Daily Telegraph is reporting anti-semitic twitters he made in the past. Oh dear.