15:42, Tue 16 Nov
Ever thought that "they were both at it" (a view from Ballance himself, already caught red handed) because Rafiq felt uncomfortable and under pressure and tried to fit in? This "both sides" stuff is cobblers unless Rafiq started it, which he plainly didn't.
I’m surprised that anybody is surprised. There are at least 5 posters on this message board that have been posting negative comments about people of Muslim origin for the last 5 years and are rarely challenged.

It’s a real bore to go to Blues games because you have to stand around the same idiots.

It’s a much broader societal issue, including at Blues. Except at Blues we somehow delude ourselves with the argument that it can’t possibly be an issue because we had a multiracial firm in 1982. People need to get better about challenging people around them (friends, families etc) and calling it out, because right now as a country we’re going backwards on this topic.

Problem is, old boy, if you respond to something robustly you are likely to find your post heavily edited or deleted. Lots of comments on here very regularly that could be construes as racist, by me anyway, but often, the racism is codified rather than overt, then any challenge gets called out for being disproportionate, something like that.

I challenge people at work for lazy stereotyping more or less every day, not just racism, there's not much of that in my trade to be honest, although there are lazy assumptions, particularity about travellers, and there is frequently a distressing prejudice against the less well heeled and poorly educated.

You are right though, and I'm going to be more proactive. And polite.
15:47, Tue 16 Nov
Yeah. It’s a good way of understand what you thought having a laugh actually is
15:48, Tue 16 Nov
Ever thought that "they were both at it" (a view from Ballance himself, already caught red handed) because Rafiq felt uncomfortable and under pressure and tried to fit in? This "both sides" stuff is cobblers unless Rafiq started it, which he plainly didn't.

I've had to do a bit of work so I'm a bit out of the loop, but hes said that they were never that close hasn't he, and that their relationship started to go down the shitter as long ago as 2013
mad
15:55, Tue 16 Nov
DCMS has now deleted Azeem's witness statement because (wait for it) they left his flipping address on it ffs
16:02, Tue 16 Nov
mad
I thought that was very strange earlier.

It's already out there.
There's too much opinion and not enough fact.
16:07, Tue 16 Nov
mad
mad
HackneyBlue
Spike
Hoggard apparently rang him after it all blew up - said he had no idea what had gone on and apologised for not being able to help.

He apologised, but he definitely did know what was going on.

[twitter.com]

Rafiq's witness statement (just released) confirms Hoggard threw the "elephant washers" comment about amongst other things

Some ridiculous questions from Steve Brine MP
For instance he asked if Yorkshire could be "considered unlucky to be caught up in the storm" ffs
"By how many will we win the Ashes?"

...but at least when he asked about other counties Azeem didn't mention Warwicks. He did earlier mention Birmingham having 50% of academy sides filled by Asian players now (which is a good thing) and that this wasn't translating into first team numbers was a problem and he's right about that disconnect - race/class issue at play in this area I wouldn't have thought Warwicks dressing rooms wouldn't tolerate the extent of racism at Headingley although there might be a blind spot

Frankly I’d be amazed if there weren’t issues at Warwickshire. I think this post (Warwickshire is a multicultural dressing room) smacks a bit of what someone posted about above in terms of ‘there can’t be any racists at blues’ (there was a multi cultural firm).

The Vaughan incident was about 4 Asian players. Nearly half the team. And that didn’t stop him. Every club in the country can expect this to blow up now I think.
16:10, Tue 16 Nov
My Blue Heaven
I’m being very open here but until I was 15/16 I didn’t understand the word kaffir

We all live and learn - some at younger ages than others.

I can accept the "product of our environments" argument to a certain extent and to a certain age. If you are a kid who grows up in a household for example - and you hear certain language from a parent (and I'm not saying this is true in your case - just giving an example) you may not understand what it means or necessarily that it is wrong.

I had a very different upbringing - and I mean very different. I never heard racist language at home and can honestly say neither will have my kids growing up. Once my old nan used a shit word in front of my oldest daughter and - I adored my nan, but I told her straight. My kids won't hear that at home and I won't bring them here to listen to it.

When I was a kid, we had a family acquaintance who was a journalist, he was imprisoned in South Africa (in the days when apartheid was still stinking the place out) for sedition against the state...which basically consisted of writing an article shining a light on the death of Steve Biko. He was in prison for years and lost everything.

So I know my environment was probably unusually "Enlightened" in that sense especially in the seventies.

But I think specifically in this case of the Yorkshire dressing room in the timeframe we are talking, nobody should have not understood the connotation of Kaffir - and Gary Ballance certainly would FFS. (I'm surprised Rafiq didn't actually - although he explained that by saying he was confused because in Islam Kaffir can mean something entirely different).

And a lot of the other language that's coming out equally so. There were evidently a lot of words being thrown about that any adult would know were just not on.

None of the above is a knock at you either BTW - I know you well enough to take you at your word. Plus as I said the other week, my own upbringing and outlook gives me different problems because I can be very naive and assume that pretty much everybody sees things the same as me, unless they are an absolute arsehole of course.

Rafiq has been quite gracious I think in saying that he thinks some people involved were not necessarily bad people - despite saying some unfortunate things and being a bit in denial.
16:10, Tue 16 Nov
Ever thought that "they were both at it" (a view from Ballance himself, already caught red handed) because Rafiq felt uncomfortable and under pressure and tried to fit in? This "both sides" stuff is cobblers unless Rafiq started it, which he plainly didn't.

I've had to do a bit of work so I'm a bit out of the loop, but hes said that they were never that close hasn't he, and that their relationship started to go down the shitter as long ago as 2013

Yes, there are large parts I've missed, but if that's the case and Rafiq has said as much, then Ballance is an idiot.
mad
16:12, Tue 16 Nov
Difference with Warwicks would be the seniority of players and established players at the club going back to the 1970's

Not suggesting there won't be issues at age group and local club level but a different kettle of fish to Yorkshire where it is ingrained from the Ray Illingworth days through Brian Close, David Byas and on and on

ECB as a whole have a problem as the Yorkshire influence there is considerable over the years

Yorkshire is out on its own however in terms of the culture of the club continuing and the sheer number of cases
16:20, Tue 16 Nov
mad
mad
Difference with Warwicks would be the seniority of players and established players at the club going back to the 1970's

Not suggesting there won't be issues at age group and local club level but a different kettle of fish to Yorkshire where it is ingrained from the Ray Illingworth days through Brian Close, David Byas and on and on

ECB as a whole have a problem as the Yorkshire influence there is considerable over the years

I just don’t see it. Sorry.

Rafiq’s evidence on how things changed so quickly at Yorks when Gillespie was replaced by Gale shows how quickly culture at a club can change. You’re also relying a lot on senior players. I bet if you’d took a straw poll this morning about which Yorks legend would have routinely used the term ‘elephant washer’ you wouldn’t have had many takers for Hoggy.

I hope I’m wrong but I think there is a naivety in your post which reminds me of the naivety there is on similar issue with blues support. I’m not trying to be rude when saying this. It’s just my view.
mad
16:28, Tue 16 Nov
All fair points. I just cant see any county being at this level Yorkshire have found themselves - East London into Essex and Kent was my only worry lately. Back in the 90's plenty of counties had these issues Gloucs, Leics, Notts etc... but I'd be shocked if Warks even had issues then

Mid 2000's when Bears had Kolpaks and Inverarity or Greatbatch was in charge? Maybe but it would've come out. The Yorkshire stuff has been known about for years

Dressing rooms would have been better led on the whole to avoid it - Ian Westwood made some inappropriate comments at an awards ceremony for womens age group cricket - there will clearly be instances of discrimination but Warks culture seems a world away from that at Yorkshire and this is going back 60 years right up to present day
16:33, Tue 16 Nov
I was thinking the same. Ballance knew what the word meant alright and Hoggard toured South Africa and will know what it meant.
Alex Hales even named his dog Kevin after the word.

They can shove their apologies up their holes.

I accept there will always be differences in views and cultures and that is fact. It isn't a bad thing. If people want to experience new things fine. If they don't then fine also. That is personal choice.
First and foremost it is about respecting each other.

I'm all for a bit of banter but some of the stuff I've read is way over the line. A bit like some of those dodgy no balls a few years back!
"supporters should be patient a little while longer - sunshine days are just around the corner."
Ken Wheldon - March 18th 1988
mad
16:33, Tue 16 Nov
Miss World
Rafiq’s evidence on how things changed so quickly at Yorks when Gillespie was replaced by Gale shows how quickly culture at a club can change. You’re also relying a lot on senior players. I bet if you’d took a straw poll this morning about which Yorks legend would have routinely used the term ‘elephant washer’ you wouldn’t have had many takers for Hoggy.

Rafiq was actually describing a situation of how the culture changed BACK to the old stale Yorkshire way after Dizzy left.

60 years they've been at it. Dizzy would've offered some sanctuary to young players in the first XI but even he couldn't transform the club from what it has been like for decades
16:35, Tue 16 Nov
Miss World
mad
Difference with Warwicks would be the seniority of players and established players at the club going back to the 1970's

Not suggesting there won't be issues at age group and local club level but a different kettle of fish to Yorkshire where it is ingrained from the Ray Illingworth days through Brian Close, David Byas and on and on

ECB as a whole have a problem as the Yorkshire influence there is considerable over the years

I just don’t see it. Sorry.

Rafiq’s evidence on how things changed so quickly at Yorks when Gillespie was replaced by Gale shows how quickly culture at a club can change. You’re also relying a lot on senior players. I bet if you’d took a straw poll this morning about which Yorks legend would have routinely used the term ‘elephant washer’ you wouldn’t have had many takers for Hoggy.

I hope I’m wrong but I think there is a naivety in your post which reminds me of the naivety there is on similar issue with blues support. I’m not trying to be rude when saying this. It’s just my view.


Maurice Chambers has claimed racism when he played for Essex and Northants.He said he didn't experience it when he played for the Bears.