18:13, Wed 17 Nov
LondonBlue
Radavis
LondonBlue
Yes. It's not a contest of whose mental health was worse. It was bad for both of them. If Rafiq is lying about Ballance's considering he went through it himself, then that's not a great look. HTH.

No, not HTH, it’s not a great look on this thread when someone’s first concern is Gary Ballences mental well being. In fact it’s very odd.

Edit. I will also add, from someone so openly opposed to BLM and taking the knee, it’s very concerning this is your take on the matter.

It's not "concerning" at all. There's lots of reasons why people, including people of colour, are opposed to the BLM and taking the knee movements. It's not your place to decide what's concerning or not.

Regardless, as I said, one man's mental health isn't more important than the other. Unless Rafiq can prove that Ballance was lying about his, that could potentially be quite damaging.

I've yet to hear a good reason for a white person (i.e. someone that looks like me) not taking the knee.
18:24, Wed 17 Nov
It's sad that yet again, when a person of colour speaks out about the disgusting abuse of racism he has faced, there are some who want to pick holes or defend those who committed the racist acts.

This is another moment (one of far too many) when we all need to listen to the man's testimony and hold those like Ballance to account. His behaviour was shameful, disgusting, and whether well intentioned or not, concern for him should not be at the heart of this, it should be for the victim.

I'm fed up of people of colour being abused and disbelieved when speaking out.
mad
18:52, Wed 17 Nov
Chalk and cheese however what we've come to expect of (and now can see quite plainly) how Yorkshire have been acting compared to what we might expect to find at Warwicks or at e.g. Land Rover or in the army. My hunch is we might not even find much of this 'lower end but insidious' stuff at Warwicks - but it's only a hunch. I concede I might be being complacent or naive

Cricket dressing rooms can be brutalizing places. Unlike any other sport in that young vulnerable people can be holed up in dressing rooms with oafish entitled senior pro's for 4 days while it pisses down outside. As recently as 25 years ago some counties still had separate dressing rooms for senior and junior pro's playing in the same team.

We've recently started to see inside dressing rooms with video footage, Warwicks put a nice one out the other week from the day they won the title, Yorkshire a few years back had a whole fly on the wall docudrama about them on Sky I think showing the cringey laddish culture of Bresnan and Lyth etc... There's even footage of Rafiq receiving his YCCC county cap from Gale in 2016. Even on that occasion they couldn't bring themselves to allow Rafiq to bask in any sense of achievement as they handed caps out (like confetti) to Jack Leaning and David Willey who'd only recently joined them
19:51, Wed 17 Nov
mad
mad
Chalk and cheese however what we've come to expect of (and now can see quite plainly) how Yorkshire have been acting compared to what we might expect to find at Warwicks or at e.g. Land Rover or in the army. My hunch is we might not even find much of this 'lower end but insidious' stuff at Warwicks - but it's only a hunch. I concede I might be being complacent or naive

Cricket dressing rooms can be brutalizing places. Unlike any other sport in that young vulnerable people can be holed up in dressing rooms with oafish entitled senior pro's for 4 days while it pisses down outside. As recently as 25 years ago some counties still had separate dressing rooms for senior and junior pro's playing in the same team.

We've recently started to see inside dressing rooms with video footage, Warwicks put a nice one out the other week from the day they won the title, Yorkshire a few years back had a whole fly on the wall docudrama about them on Sky I think showing the cringey laddish culture of Bresnan and Lyth etc... There's even footage of Rafiq receiving his YCCC county cap from Gale in 2016. Even on that occasion they couldn't bring themselves to allow Rafiq to bask in any sense of achievement as they handed caps out (like confetti) to Jack Leaning and David Willey who'd only recently joined them

I’m sorry to harp on about this as I know it’s not even close to the most important issue here, but I’m really struggling to understand your repeated insistence that “it wouldn’t happen at Warwickshire”. It doesn’t seem to be based on anything more than blind hope as far as I can see.
mad
20:00, Wed 17 Nov
That might be all it is but also considering the dressing room cultures as discussed previously which you and others for some reason suggest would have little impact.

Whilst I am in no way blind to the levels of racism in the UK, I have to hope and believe - and I still do - that there will not be too many institutions out there, in any sector, as racist to its rotten core as that which we have seen from Yorkshire County Cricket Club. It is true and easy to say, this is everywhere. But I also think this is an extraordinarily bad and special case.

Society must not be allowed to diminish the current and urgent (and about bloody time too) focus on Yorkshire. One of the best ways to achieve a shifting of societal norms for the better future for all is throwing the kitchen sink at Yorkshire CCC and not attempting to water their excesses down by suggesting society is fecked, everyone is fecked, we're all somehow implicated.

Let's talk about Bumble and Vaughan. Very different approaches. Bumble unreservedly apologises, Vaughan doubles down and refutes the allegation corroborated by 3 players. Neither crime all that egregious compared to some of the other stuff. Both we'd like to think would be better off apologising. Bumble is 71 but I think most would accept him being given a second chance now he's apologised wheras Vaughan will be in folks bad books. Sponsors apparently abandonning Vaughan etc...

Cynically however his refutation far from diminishing Vaughan's employment prospects might in fact enhance them as it plays into the culture war rhetoric he has cooked up himself so he will get gigs at The Telegraph, GBeebies and Talkshite although he might struggle to hold on at the BBC
mad
21:11, Wed 17 Nov
One of the gaping holes in oversight that could potentially allow this to have occurred elsewhere possibily I have to admit even at Warks is the absence of good quality local newspaper or broadcast journalism these days

I'd like to think back in the day the likes of George Dobell when he was at the B'ham Post or Brian Halford at the Evening Mail wouldn't toe the county club line to the extent they were basically a shill.

This appears to have been what has happened with the local press up at Yorkshire with the local cricket correspondent Chris Waters writing in the Yorkshire Post articles over the last 3 years always slanted from the clubs perspective and apparently never having interviewed Azeem for his side of things. He promoted in his writing on behalf of YCCC the line that Azeem Rafiq "has a screw loose" (tweeted) and was to blame for stirring up trouble, was the cause of Yorkshire players being unable to wear their tracksuits out and about around Headingley etc...

Unfortunately local press everywhere is pants these days so it is possible for things to slip or a portrayl of a club as wholly benevolent to be promoted
09:12, Thu 18 Nov
IanT
Holdsworth_MaraSonner
The Devlin Disguise
Rasputin
I've seen plenty of comments on the mail saying they can't see any difference between calling him a racist term, and calling someone a Brit/Yank/Aussie/Saffer etc.

I find that bizarre - are people really that obtuse? I know some are saying it as they know full well it's racist and they think this sort of argument gives them a free pass, and others are genuinely just ignorant (the 'P--- shop' for example generally isn't meant in an offensive way). But come on - it's like saying the n word isn't offensive as it's just an adaption of the Latin for black, or indeed the K word (not Kevin...) comes from Arabic and means non-believer, or even that the C word isn't offensive on the grounds that no-one could possibly be offended by being compared to a simple body part.

I suppose it's one thing to be saying 'I genuinely didn't know' in which case well done for belatedly finding out (but where have you been since the early 1970s), but another to be nit-picking over whether or not it is a racial slur.

For the love of God, how can it possibly be intended in an inoffensive way? Ridiculous.

The Devlin Disguise, is, like me, one of the good guys.

I know what he means.

My old mum used to use the word 'Jew' when referring to anyone who was tight with money. She wasn't in any way anti-semitic, and would have been mortified if she thought it was offensive to someone....but she used it nonetheless.

It was of it's time and used casually without thought.

Thankfully those days have long gone.

Thanks for the back up Ian. Exactly what I meant - I'm not saying it's inoffensive (I find it offensive and would point it out to people, including my own family at times). I just mean that people often say it out of ignorance not malice in my experience. Which doesn't make it right, just explains the reasons differently to someone using the word maliciously in other contexts. Just trying to fathom how on earth, in the Rafiq/Yorkshire context, someone can genuinely reason it's not offensive.
09:23, Thu 18 Nov
The Devlin Disguise
IanT
Holdsworth_MaraSonner
The Devlin Disguise
Rasputin
I've seen plenty of comments on the mail saying they can't see any difference between calling him a racist term, and calling someone a Brit/Yank/Aussie/Saffer etc.

I find that bizarre - are people really that obtuse? I know some are saying it as they know full well it's racist and they think this sort of argument gives them a free pass, and others are genuinely just ignorant (the 'P--- shop' for example generally isn't meant in an offensive way). But come on - it's like saying the n word isn't offensive as it's just an adaption of the Latin for black, or indeed the K word (not Kevin...) comes from Arabic and means non-believer, or even that the C word isn't offensive on the grounds that no-one could possibly be offended by being compared to a simple body part.

I suppose it's one thing to be saying 'I genuinely didn't know' in which case well done for belatedly finding out (but where have you been since the early 1970s), but another to be nit-picking over whether or not it is a racial slur.

For the love of God, how can it possibly be intended in an inoffensive way? Ridiculous.

The Devlin Disguise, is, like me, one of the good guys.

I know what he means.

My old mum used to use the word 'Jew' when referring to anyone who was tight with money. She wasn't in any way anti-semitic, and would have been mortified if she thought it was offensive to someone....but she used it nonetheless.

It was of it's time and used casually without thought.

Thankfully those days have long gone.

Thanks for the back up Ian. Exactly what I meant - I'm not saying it's inoffensive (I find it offensive and would point it out to people, including my own family at times). I just mean that people often say it out of ignorance not malice in my experience. Which doesn't make it right, just explains the reasons differently to someone using the word maliciously in other contexts. Just trying to fathom how on earth, in the Rafiq/Yorkshire context, someone can genuinely reason it's not offensive.

👍
There's too much opinion and not enough fact.
09:42, Thu 18 Nov
I also get what The Devlin disguise in saying in that sense.

But...my view is (I think) more clear cut. I think there are offensive words which shouldn't be used and I find it difficult to argue that they can be used in more or less offensive or non-malicious ways.

P..i is one of those words.

N...er is another, there are plenty of others.

For example, I used to work with a (white) guy, who used to use the word N....r in what he thought was an inoffensive way. As in he would greet people by saying things like "Yo, how's it going my N....r?" He apparently thought it quite cool, "street" and definitely not offensive.

I had to tell him that not only did it sound bleeding ridiculous, but was definitely offensive - at least to me, however friendly he thought he was being.

Another guy I knew would use the words The Pa..s for example when discussing the Pakistan cricket team. He might say "the Pa..s have won the toss" or "The Pa..s are playing well here" He again thought he was being completely inoffensive because all he was doing in his mind was shortening the word Pakistanis.

Some words should just be avoided because it's much kinder and much easier than trying to make an argument after the fact about whether or not you were being or meant to be offensive.
09:45, Thu 18 Nov
Spot on about the n word. No one should use it, whatever colour they are. Same as the p word. Cut it out altogether or you risk some people thinking it’s fair game for them to use it
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”
09:51, Thu 18 Nov
I absolutely agree with you there.

The words are deeply offensive, obviously, but through ignorance were used without malice (sometimes, in years gone by...certainly not nowadays).
There's too much opinion and not enough fact.
10:19, Thu 18 Nov
Totally agree, and to be clear I wasn’t trying to excuse or justify it, just try to get my head round what would possess people in 2021 to go on the Daily Mail website comments section claiming not to know it’s offensive. It can only be genuine ignorance or something much worse.
10:24, Thu 18 Nov
I saw on Twitter there’s a team in Australia that go by the name of P… Power . It’s a team of Pakistani men/men of Pakistani heritage.

People are using this to defend the use of the term

Some people defend the n word as its in songs and used instead of “mate” by a lot of black people relatives and friends of mine included.

Ideally no one would say these words to give people no far reaching excuse, but the n word especially Is used too mainstream for that to happen in my opinion
My Blue Heaven
I saw on Twitter there’s a team in Australia that go by the name of P… Power . It’s a team of Pakistani men/men of Pakistani heritage.

People are using this to defend the use of the term

Some people defend the n word as its in songs and used instead of “mate” by a lot of black people relatives and friends of mine included.

Ideally no one would say these words to give people no far reaching excuse, but the n word especially Is used too mainstream for that to happen in my opinion

All of that semantics misses the central point that, in this case, it was held to be offensive by the person on the end of it, and was intended to be offensive by the people saying it - what else is ‘banter’ if not that? A thin argument to say that ‘I knew it was offensive enough to be used as an insult but not racist’ (even though it can only be offensive because it picks on race/ethnicity), although that’s what Hoggard and Ballance seem to be saying.

In the Australian example, I know that there are cultural differences there (e.g. the W word applies to Greeks, Lebanese etc. and is sometimes considered an offensive slur and sometimes used by those groups themselves) so maybe the P word doesn’t have the same connotations there as in the UK? I’ve no idea.
10:37, Thu 18 Nov
My Blue Heaven
the n word especially Is used too mainstream for that to happen in my opinion

I kind of understand the bare logic of that argument - if it's ok for black people to use the word ni...r why is it wrong for white people to use it in what they think is an inoffensive way?

It's similar to some Gay people referring to themselves as Qu..r...so why can't I call them that?

But the correct answer for me is just that it's not ok and I think people should understand that because it just sounds, and is, and means, different coming from a white or straight person.

There was a debate - which probably still goes on, about whether black people should stop using that word because it normalises it and makes it available. their argument is that - no, they have appropriated the word, that's their right and will use it if they want. Other black people do come down on the side of - no, don't use it - let's make the word disappear. I say it's not up to me to tell black (or in their case) Gay people how they should feel I can only apply my own standard, which is that I won't use these words because I can't hear them coming from my mouth in any situation.