mad
19:40, Tue 16 Nov
Not just seniority of players it's the culture within Bears dressing room I doubt would stand for any of it.

You telling me Jeetan and Keith Barker would have stood for it?

Or Piper or Gladstone or Asif Din?

Or even players in the Bears dressing room of the 1970's Willis, Kannai, Kallicharan?


Many of the above good public speakers so fairly sure it'd have been mentioned

It happened at Yorkshire precisely because they didn't have such figureheads at their club and I knew Essex would get drawn in and the London counties but theirs would mainly be from the 90's
19:44, Tue 16 Nov
mad
Bit dodgy of Rafiq to claim Ballance failed a drugs test and wasn't struggling with his mental health after he took time off.

Surely a failed drugs test will be easy to confirm...
Dong Ren Out.
19:47, Tue 16 Nov
mad
mad
Not just seniority of players it's the culture within Bears dressing room I doubt would stand for any of it.

You telling me Jeetan and Keith Barker would have stood for it?

Or Piper or Gladstone or Asif Din?

Or even players in the Bears dressing room of the 1970's Willis, Kannai, Kallicharan?


Many of the above good public speakers so fairly sure it'd have been mentioned

It happened at Yorkshire precisely because they didn't have such figureheads at their club

I come all the way back to my first post on this thread, and how this reminds me of the ‘it can’t be a problem at blues’ argument.
19:51, Tue 16 Nov
I don’t doubt that, I think most would have thought it was sort of endearing. It was rather strange as his name is/was not really that hard…


Still plying his trade. Over 100 games in good Chile side - good player, shud never ‘ave…,
mad
19:57, Tue 16 Nov
Miss World
I come all the way back to my first post on this thread, and how this reminds me of the ‘it can’t be a problem at blues’ argument.

That's just a pointless thing to say though cos nobody is arguing that it can't be a problem at Blues racism clearly is a problem among Blues fans. I'm suggesting this particular issue is unlikely to be at Warwicks and I'd add Lancs to that too.

This issue wasn't really hidden at all at Yorkshire. They were so blatant about it, elements of their club even proudly boasting of their racism - and nobody seemed too concerned least of all the ECB. The other clubs where this will come out are the ones people kind of know about already. Toxic dressing room cultures I mean.
Bordesley not Small Heath
My Blue Heaven
I called Beausejour “Dave” at the time he signed as a stupid throw away comment

I was ignorant not to try and spell him his name.

No offence was ever intended.

It's hard to convince some people thesedays but it is possible call somebody by another another name
and not mean offence

At football practice when I first went to uni for a long time I was known as 'Brum'. Its not my given name.

I am sure we have all encountered people known as Taff, paddy, jock even though that's not their name

It’s not hard to convince me but that’s not the point. Surely you can see what it’s about?

The original poster sees that it is lacking in respect. As it happens, most if not all of the Scots and Irish that I know wouldn’t welcome being called Jock or Paddy by people who know them. Unless that was what they wanted to be called. It’s really just another brick in the construction of an unfortunate mindset, if we aren’t careful.
20:12, Tue 16 Nov
mad
mad
Miss World
I come all the way back to my first post on this thread, and how this reminds me of the ‘it can’t be a problem at blues’ argument.

That's just a pointless thing to say though cos nobody is arguing that it can't be a problem at Blues racism clearly is a problem among Blues fans. I'm suggesting this particular issue is unlikely to be at Warwicks and I'd add Lancs to that too.

This issue wasn't really hidden at all at Yorkshire. They were so blatant about it, elements of their club even proudly boasting of their racism - and nobody seemed too concerned least of all the ECB. The other clubs where this will come out are the ones people kind of know about already. Toxic dressing room cultures I mean.

I could not disagree more. There is absolutely an attitude of ‘there can’t be a problem at blues’ because of a multicultural firm’. Not everyone will take that view of course, but I’m staggered if you really think there isn’t an element of that. I think there is a clear line to be drawn between that, and your position that there is unlikely to be an issue with racism at Warwickshire because of there being a history of senior black Asian or mixed race players.
20:26, Tue 16 Nov
Spike
My Blue Heaven
I’m being very open here but until I was 15/16 I didn’t understand the word kaffir

We all live and learn - some at younger ages than others.

I can accept the "product of our environments" argument to a certain extent and to a certain age. If you are a kid who grows up in a household for example - and you hear certain language from a parent (and I'm not saying this is true in your case - just giving an example) you may not understand what it means or necessarily that it is wrong.

I had a very different upbringing - and I mean very different. I never heard racist language at home and can honestly say neither will have my kids growing up. Once my old nan used a shit word in front of my oldest daughter and - I adored my nan, but I told her straight. My kids won't hear that at home and I won't bring them here to listen to it.

When I was a kid, we had a family acquaintance who was a journalist, he was imprisoned in South Africa (in the days when apartheid was still stinking the place out) for sedition against the state...which basically consisted of writing an article shining a light on the death of Steve Biko. He was in prison for years and lost everything.

So I know my environment was probably unusually "Enlightened" in that sense especially in the seventies.

But I think specifically in this case of the Yorkshire dressing room in the timeframe we are talking, nobody should have not understood the connotation of Kaffir - and Gary Ballance certainly would FFS. (I'm surprised Rafiq didn't actually - although he explained that by saying he was confused because in Islam Kaffir can mean something entirely different).

And a lot of the other language that's coming out equally so. There were evidently a lot of words being thrown about that any adult would know were just not on.

None of the above is a knock at you either BTW - I know you well enough to take you at your word. Plus as I said the other week, my own upbringing and outlook gives me different problems because I can be very naive and assume that pretty much everybody sees things the same as me, unless they are an absolute arsehole of course.

Rafiq has been quite gracious I think in saying that he thinks some people involved were not necessarily bad people - despite saying some unfortunate things and being a bit in denial.
I also loved my Nan as much as anyone in the World, and would have been in my 20’s when she was in Residential Care and whilst visiting her, with a black lady getting her dinner ready, my Nan said to her to hurry up. The lady gave my Nan her dinner and I apologised for my Nan snapping at her. She smiled and winked and left.
My Nan went barmy at me and said that I’d embarrassed her and that she didn’t like the woman as she was taking an English persons job. I told my Nan that she should be thankful for the woman wanting to look after her and putting up with the way she was spoken to and that a lot of English people wouldn’t be as good at her job as she was. My Nan barely spoke to me for the next 2 hours. The next day I got a call at home and answered the house phone, it was my Nan apologising for how she’d behaved and for spoiling my Sunday visit. She then said someone wanted to speak to me, it was the black carer who said never to fall out with my Nan again and to say she loved the chocolates, flowers and perfume my Nan had bought her via my Mom.
Life seemed simpler back then
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”
20:33, Tue 16 Nov
My Blue Heaven
I called Beausejour “Dave” at the time he signed as a stupid throw away comment

I was ignorant not to try and spell him his name.

No offence was ever intended.
You’re a good bloke. I do like you
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”
mad
20:45, Tue 16 Nov
Miss World
I could not disagree more. There is absolutely an attitude of ‘there can’t be a problem at blues’ because of a multicultural firm’. Not everyone will take that view of course, but I’m staggered if you really think there isn’t an element of that. I think there is a clear line to be drawn between that, and your position that there is unlikely to be an issue with racism at Warwickshire because of there being a history of senior black Asian or mixed race players.

Yet we know about some Blues fans and we all knew about Yorkshire's issues so it isn't the same as awaiting (me not holding my breath or in your case half expecting) evidence if there is any of issues at Warwicks

If it is at Warwicks in the dressing room I'd be surprised

In terms of disappointment - alongside Bell, Trott and Collingwood, Bresnan was my favourite England player on my Ashes trip in 2010 so it is disappointing that he wasn't the one who apologised to Azeem a year ago (that was apparently Hoggy) but instead has gone down the Vaughan route in his point blank denial of racism this evening whilst acknowledging belatedly the bullying
20:52, Tue 16 Nov
mad
mad
Miss World
I could not disagree more. There is absolutely an attitude of ‘there can’t be a problem at blues’ because of a multicultural firm’. Not everyone will take that view of course, but I’m staggered if you really think there isn’t an element of that. I think there is a clear line to be drawn between that, and your position that there is unlikely to be an issue with racism at Warwickshire because of there being a history of senior black Asian or mixed race players.

Yet we know about some Blues fans and we all knew about Yorkshire's issues so it isn't the same as awaiting (me not holding my breath or in your case half expecting) evidence if there is any of issues at Warwicks

If it is at Warwicks in the dressing room I'd be surprised

In terms of disappointment - alongside Bell, Trott and Collingwood, Bresnan was my favourite England player on my Ashes trip in 2010 so it is disappointing that he wasn't the one who apologised to Azeem a year ago (that was apparently Hoggy) but instead has gone down the Vaughan route in his point blank denial of racism this evening whilst acknowledging belatedly the bullying

This is a case of believing what you want to believe when all the facts might suggest otherwise. A bit like the ‘Blues fans aren’t racist, it wouldn’t be stood for’ stuff.
mad
21:06, Tue 16 Nov
What facts suggest otherwise pray tell?

Very different from "Blues fans could never be racist" as we see them and sit next to them every week, hear their nonsense in the loos etc...
21:08, Tue 16 Nov
mad
His own experiences?
Jude Bellingham - "Once a blue, always a blue" “This is my Club, I love the Club to bits. I’d die for this Club”
mad
21:12, Tue 16 Nov
I did ask for facts as none appear to be in the public domain pertaining to Warwickshire's dressing room

Warwickshire chairman Mark McCafferty tells PA the club is ‘seriously concerned’ by specific claims against Tim Bresnan and “will seek to talk to Azeem at the earliest opportunity so that we can fully understand the detail”
Bresnan has said he will ‘fully co-operate’

This is a delicate matter, as it involves allegations about Tim’s behaviour while at another club. However, as we have said before, racism or bullying will not be tolerated here at Warwickshire, and we will not shirk from investigating these matters in full”
21:14, Tue 16 Nov
Just catching up on this. Some of these allegations are horrendous, and as someone who really got into cricket in the early naughties hoggard always seemed dim but a lovable roughs. Nothing lovable about his actions as Blue Heaven said earlier there are certain things I thought were normal words until I was in my teens and quickly realised they weren’t when I started spending more time with people of different backgrounds.

I’d say I can understand some confusion over certain things until an age because you only know what you’re told. But these guys were way past that age and it’s no excuse. In addition to the racism, the way Yorkshire treated him about everything was terrible and I wonder if it was all because of his race or because they are terrible employers. I’d imagine a bit of both. Really sorry stat of affairs and when you have Ballance and Hoggard owning up and apologising whilst Vaughan still doubles down says a lot about Vaughan to me.

Really feel for Rafiq. I can only imagine how it must have felt as a teenager to be subject to this sort of abuse from much older, more experienced players. Glad he’s come forward and hope it’s the start of major change.

I wonder if this sort of banter is one of the reasons for the decline of black cricketers, which is such a shame, but didn’t Carberry come out recently about his treatment or have I made that up?